R.Y.A Training - what do you thinlk of it?

[RobbieW]

...Sail and Power conversion? What if you have lots of mileage on both? Not to mention my sail boat does have an engine. and I do occasionally motor. Can you do both at the same time? presuming I don't intend to rent two different boats.
Can you use both types of mileage to come up with the total if one were a bit short?

I get the power boat not including sail. For some strange reason it never really occurred to me they were different. I just thought a sailboat would cover both.

There are differences, quite significant ones, between sail and power. Obviously mobos dont generally have sails, and its generally only cats that have two engines. Its the twin engine config that is the significant difference between the two, when I did the conversion to motor it was done on a single engine deep V mobo and I was really dissapointed (it was cheap though ) - what I'd wanted was experience with twin engines. My understanding is that if the YM Motor exam is done on a twin engine boat, the candidate is expected to demonstrate a fair bit of skill in close quarters handling. Since the successful candidate ends up with the same bit paper in each case, perhaps theres a case for distinguishing between twin and single engine in both sail and motor categories ?

 

[capnsensible]

One point which annoyed me is that despite having a YM Offshore (sail) with commercial endorsement, the RYA refused to issue ICC for power over 10m, stating I would have to do a power boat course to have that. Quoting what could be driven with the commercial endorsement had no bearing they said. Just trying to screw more money from people.

Simplest way is just to take the ICC test on a motor boat. Lots of RTC's offer that. But motorboating is never cheap!

 

[capnsensible]

Just a curious about something.
I was contemplating challenging a YM next time I am in UK. For no particularly good reason. Other than I feel like it.
I do have a vague notion, off becoming an instructor, if an when I retire. I thought it might help keep me off the couch.
Not sure If I will do RYA. But I thought get the YM explore options later.

Sail and Power conversion? What if you have lots of mileage on both? Not to mention my sail boat does have an engine. and I do occasionally motor. Can you do both at the same time? presuming I don't intend to rent two different boats.
Can you use both types of mileage to come up with the total if one were a bit short?

I get the power boat not including sail. For some strange reason it never really occurred to me they were different. I just thought a sailboat would cover both.

You can take the exam in one discipline and then a shorter conversion exam in the other.

Conversion exam pre requisites: Half the mileage (ie 1250) on the other type of vessel. Motoring a saily boat doesnt count!
25 days seatime. 3 days as skipper. 3 passages over 60 miles, including one overnight and one as skipper.

Lots of information in the Yachtmaster Handbook by James Stevens. Makes it all clear, I always recommend it to candidates.

 

[GrahamM376]

Simplest way is just to take the ICC test on a motor boat. Lots of RTC's offer that. But motorboating is never cheap!

According to the RYA spokesperson, that would only give the <10m ICC endorsement which I already had.

 

[capnsensible]

According to the RYA spokesperson, that would only give the <10m ICC endorsement which I already had.

Here is a link to the test form. It explains that if you do a sail or power boat ICC you will be limited to 10m and under. To go over 10m you will need to be tested on a suitable Motor Cruiser.

Hope this helps.

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/cruising/Web Documents/Boating Abroad/ICC Form.pdf

Personally, I reckon if Power and Motor were better explained then there would be less misunderstanding.

 

[GrahamM376]

Here is a link to the test form. It explains that if you do a sail or power boat ICC you will be limited to 10m and under. To go over 10m you will need to be tested on a suitable Motor Cruiser.

Hope this helps. Personally, I reckon if Power and Motor were better explained then there would be less misunderstanding.

Thanks Chris, this shows the person I spoke to at the RYA didn't know what they were talking about. I specifically asked if there was a boat handling practical and was told no, a power boat course was necessary.

 

[capnsensible]

:encouragement:

I should get a consultancy fee plus, sometimes on these RYA threads, a tin helmet and flak jacket!!!

 

[nortada]

Is there an minimum and maximum age limit for YM and the various endorsements?

 

[capnsensible]

Is there an minimum and maximum age limit for YM and the various endorsements?

17 for Yachtmaster Coastal, 18 for Offshore.

For instructors, medical and revalidation becomes a bit of a web of directives after 65. Even more complex after 72.

On a recent delivery I was with a very fit commercial Offshore bloke of 73!

 

[Uricanejack]

You can take the exam in one discipline and then a shorter conversion exam in the other.

Conversion exam pre requisites: Half the mileage (ie 1250) on the other type of vessel. Motoring a saily boat doesnt count!
25 days seatime. 3 days as skipper. 3 passages over 60 miles, including one overnight and one as skipper.

Lots of information in the Yachtmaster Handbook by James Stevens. Makes it all clear, I always recommend it to candidates.

thanks

 

[Babylon]

I'm a bit late to this thread, but answering the OP's question as a typical, now middle-aged subject of the system.

The RYA 'training-ladder' got me confidently and safely into yacht sailing thirteen years ago. At the time it was hugely useful to follow the basic progression (CC, DS Theory, DS Practical, plus VHF, 1st Aid and Sea Survival one-day jobbies). I then bought my own boat and carried on learning on the job, whilst also ingesting as many technical and voyaging books as I could find. All fine and good.

Then I did the YM Theory course (with the same old boy in my local town who had taught me DS Theory and VHF), which reinforced and added to the knowledge of the earlier DS Theory. Still good.

With some Channel experience and looking for further quality training, but without yet enough sea miles at the time to go for YM Offshore, I signed up for a Coastal Skipper practical with a RYA school. Instructor was brilliant, however my compatriots were all DS candidates none of whom had done any theory or had any basic crewing let alone yacht sailing experience! . This (as well as the fact that the boat wasn't available for the first 24hrs) significantly compromised and limited my own learning. Not good.

I complained to the RYA, who - I felt - were affronted by my impudence, but I stuck to my guns and eventually they pressured the school to give me a partial refund.

That was eight years ago. Although I've now easily got enough miles to go for YM Offshore, I've lost faith in the organisation, and am only interested in my own cruising. Further training would be good - there's always more that can be learnt - but I've got enough to go safely along with.

Jon

PS The chart-plotter thing: I started using mine properly for the first time last last summer for waypoint/route navigation when single-handing around the Channel Islands. But every time there was a bit of a bump (tidal race going east-about around Alderney up from the south) it lost power and re-booted - proving frustrating in a fast-moving situation. Luckily I'd pencilled the whole lot onto the paper chart first and the hand-bearing compass did the rest. (Still haven't sourced the wiring problem!)

 

[lpdsn]

That was eight years ago. Although I've now easily got enough miles to go for YM Offshore, I've lost faith in the organisation, and am only interested in my own cruising. Further training would be good - there's always more that can be learnt - but I've got enough to go safely along with.

Go for the exam. You'll probably be surprised how much you learn from the examiner. And it'll help confirm the skills you've developed. You could even do it on your own boat.

I know what you mean about the Day Skippers coming out with 5 days total on a boat and a ticket. I've had some as crew. Some can be taught but some are just a complete liability. I suspect many drift away from sailing.

 

[Babylon]

Good point about doing the exam - for the learning.

Almost in fact did this a few years ago. My own boat at 8.2m is just big enough and had a fellow forumite lined up as the other candidate/crew and an examiner booked, but a vicious bug laid me low at the last minute and had to cancel.

Might just set a similar thing up again - or perhaps do it on a bigger boat?

 

[lw395]

I wouldn't knock the 'dazed kippers' too much.
5 days with a good instructor is a pretty good start of hands-on boat handling.
When you are starting from zero, good initial training is a real leg-up the learning curve.

Part of being a YM is being able to manage less experienced crew.
When I did my YM, the prep week had two YM candidates, a DS and a Coastal Skipper.
I think that worked well for everyone, instead of 4 or 5 YM candidates each trying to be in charge.
We also had an excellent instructor, who could actually teach what he knew.

 

[lpdsn]

Part of being a YM is being able to manage less experienced crew.

I've never ever had a problem managing a novice, but a little learning is a dangerous thing and I've had the odd one or two do really stupid things because they knew best - or even worse tell another properly briefed crew member outside my hearing to do something completely different. Much more of an attitude thing on their part rather than lack of training - having a ticket can sometimes give individuals an unreasonable level of confidence in their own competency. In the end I sail for fun and can't be arsed to manage a loose cannon with a ticket.

 

[lw395]

I've never ever had a problem managing a novice, but a little learning is a dangerous thing and I've had the odd one or two do really stupid things because they knew best - or even worse tell another properly briefed crew member outside my hearing to do something completely different. Much more of an attitude thing on their part rather than lack of training - having a ticket can sometimes give individuals an unreasonable level of confidence in their own competency. In the end I sail for fun and can't be arsed to manage a loose cannon with a ticket.

One of the things I've learned, and particularly been aware of since not owning my own yacht, is the way many people have one way of doing something and are utterly inflexible about other approaches. Two boats I sail on seem to have two completely different, incompatible regimes dictating how the boat should be tied to the pontoon.
I think there is a tendency for beginners to be taught there is only one way of doing things, the instructor's way.
In reality, it's better that people know things can be done differently, but a team has to be consistent.
Relative novices who don't know how little they know are always a problem.
As are people, particularly blokes, who feel the need to exaggerate their competence due to some sort of peer pressure from the rest of the crew.
I don;t think that's an RYA badge problem specifically.

 

[lpdsn]

One of the things I've learned, and particularly been aware of since not owning my own yacht, is the way many people have one way of doing something and are utterly inflexible about other approaches. Two boats I sail on seem to have two completely different, incompatible regimes dictating how the boat should be tied to the pontoon.
I think there is a tendency for beginners to be taught there is only one way of doing things, the instructor's way.
In reality, it's better that people know things can be done differently, but a team has to be consistent.
Relative novices who don't know how little they know are always a problem.
As are people, particularly blokes, who feel the need to exaggerate their competence due to some sort of peer pressure from the rest of the crew.
I don;t think that's an RYA badge problem specifically.

I'm actually quite liberal about ways of doing things as long as they're not immediately dangerous. If someone does something a way I don't like I try to work around it and hold off until I can quietly explain it to them.

The issues I've had with the odd one or two Day Skippers has been much worse than that. One example: I was parking a long keeler in quite strong winds so I used a lot of welly to get the bow up into the wind, which worked perfectly. He stepped off with the bow line and immediately tied it off on the cleat at the outer end up the pontoon. The owner was standing on the pontoon and he and the mate screamed at him not to do it. I didn't have time to say anything but was able to use the strong prop kick to avoid damaging the next door boat. Later I tried to explain it to him and he said "You were going too fast". He'd only ever spent five days on a boat previously but knew better even in circumstances that were outside his range of experience. I'd like to think I'm good at managing crew but have decided not to attempt to manage unmanageable crew - just not worth it. So far I've blacklisted three crew in the past twenty years.

It's the ones that get a ticket with no prior experience, not even a CC. Not sure whether it's lack of experience or an existing arrogant attitude that makes them think they only need the five days to become competent. The latter I suspect.

 

[nortada]

I'm actually quite liberal about ways of doing things as long as they're not immediately dangerous. If someone does something a way I don't like I try to work around it and hold off until I can quietly explain it to them.

The issues I've had with the odd one or two Day Skippers has been much worse than that. One example: I was parking a long keeler in quite strong winds so I used a lot of welly to get the bow up into the wind, which worked perfectly. He stepped off with the bow line and immediately tied it off on the cleat at the outer end up the pontoon. The owner was standing on the pontoon and he and the mate screamed at him not to do it. I didn't have time to say anything but was able to use the strong prop kick to avoid damaging the next door boat. Later I tried to explain it to him and he said "You were going too fast". He'd only ever spent five days on a boat previously but knew better even in circumstances that were outside his range of experience. I'd like to think I'm good at managing crew but have decided not to attempt to manage unmanageable crew - just not worth it. So far I've blacklisted three crew in the past twenty years.

It's the ones that get a ticket with no prior experience, not even a CC. Not sure whether it's lack of experience or an existing arrogant attitude that makes them think they only need the five days to become competent. The latter I suspect.

All about attitude rather than ability!

Similar people should not be on the roads and certainly not have a flying license.

 

[lw395]

I'm actually quite liberal about ways of doing things as long as they're not immediately dangerous. If someone does something a way I don't like I try to work around it and hold off until I can quietly explain it to them.

The issues I've had with the odd one or two Day Skippers has been much worse than that. One example: I was parking a long keeler in quite strong winds so I used a lot of welly to get the bow up into the wind, which worked perfectly. He stepped off with the bow line and immediately tied it off on the cleat at the outer end up the pontoon. The owner was standing on the pontoon and he and the mate screamed at him not to do it. I didn't have time to say anything but was able to use the strong prop kick to avoid damaging the next door boat. Later I tried to explain it to him and he said "You were going too fast". He'd only ever spent five days on a boat previously but knew better even in circumstances that were outside his range of experience. I'd like to think I'm good at managing crew but have decided not to attempt to manage unmanageable crew - just not worth it. So far I've blacklisted three crew in the past twenty years.

It's the ones that get a ticket with no prior experience, not even a CC. Not sure whether it's lack of experience or an existing arrogant attitude that makes them think they only need the five days to become competent. The latter I suspect.

The pre-course experience for a Dazed Kipper is "5 days, 100 miles, 4 night hours on board a sailing yacht".
I.e. not much more than zero.
That is the point of it, it is an entry level qualification.

These people are not going to have any more clue about long keelers than they would 49ers.

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

The pre-course experience for a Dazed Kipper is "5 days, 100 miles, 4 night hours on board a sailing yacht".
I.e. not much more than zero.
That is the point of it, it is an entry level qualification.

These people are not going to have any more clue about long keelers than they would 49ers.

and they paid many bucks for the qualification so they must demonstrate that.