R.Y.A Training - what do you thinlk of it?

[Minchsailor]

Thanks for clarification. This appears to dilute the 'yacht master' qualification.

 

[[163233]]

Thanks for clarification. This appears to dilute the 'yacht master' qualification.

What does?

 

[zoidberg]

A lot has been aired, and much dust shaken out, via the past 11 pages. Some sound points remade, and some not-so-sound....

With over 50 years' sailing - Enterprises to carbon trimarans - under the belt, and involvement with the RYA's 'training industry' stretching across much of that, it's been helpful to remember that one does not need an RYA bit of paper to sail successfully. But it certainly helps.

The core of the National Training Scheme's success used to be the legion of experienced but diverse part-time instructors who provided most of the training muscle in sailing clubs and 'night classes' across the nation. That ensured the programme was cheap, both for students and for 'Training Providers' to run. The RYA has always been on a 'Mission Creep' empire-building jag, self-promoting at every opportunity. It has always been a commercial entity with a veneer of public service, and relative priorities have shifted significantly in recent years towards the 'commercial'. The part-time instructor has all but been squeezed out by commercial pressures. As a result, the cost of training/learning courses has soared.... and so has the cost of re-validating qualifications held for decades.

The RYA schemes are mostly internally-devised, with RYA internal priorities dominant, except in the area of training courses that are primarily the responsibility of the MCA.... i.e. 'Yachtmaster'. The content and standards of these are notionally set by the Yachtmaster™ Qualification Panel - a shady group of hugely-experienced individuals about as anonymous as MI5 Main Board Members. It is the collective opinion of these experts which defines what's included/retained and required in the RYA/MCA courses. I have it on some authority that they do not suffer fools gladly, and are not at all given to outbreaks of democracy.

It seems certain that the YQP gives weight to concerns about responsible 'skipperyship' and demonstration of a suitable approach to the safety of crew and others on board. Events recently in the news and embargoed here should underscore that. Those who single-hand quite small boats may be quite capable of looking after themselves, but have little practical experience of looking after others dependent on them. As for owners of Corribees and others under 7.5m, such as the remarkable Roger Taylor in 'MingMing', "The RYA reserves the right to refuse an exam on a vessel that, in the view of the RYA Chief Examiner, will not allow the examiner to conduct an examination to the standard required by the RYA/MCA Yachtmaster™ Qualification Panel."

Roger, with thousands of miles and years of sea-time in sail-trading craft behind him, is better equipped than many in such craft today to make sound decisions. There is need for a National Training Scheme, and the RYA's serves quite well. It could, however, be improved for some.

 

[capnsensible]

Nicely put. BZ

 

[[163233]]

Those who single-hand quite small boats may be quite capable of looking after themselves, but have little practical experience of looking after others dependent on them.

That's about single-handing rather than the size of the boat.

"The RYA reserves the right to refuse an exam on a vessel that, in the view of the RYA Chief Examiner, will not allow the examiner to conduct an examination to the standard required by the RYA/MCA Yachtmaster™ Qualification Panel."

The objection isn't that the exam has a size requirement but that experience in smaller boats doesn't count toward the pre-requisites.

 

[lw395]

I've been put off progressing any further up the qualification ladder by the need for qualifying passages to be made in a 7m+ boat.

I understand that without a large crew it's hard to demonstrate familiarity with organising watches, and perhaps boat handling in confined spaces is easier with a 6.1m Corribee, but I still consider it to be yachting!

It is a shame if that puts you off aspiring to the YM qualification.

My view is that boats vary a lot and the YM ticket covers us up to something quite big and expensive.
The line has to be drawn somewhere.
The qualifying passages requirements are actually not that onerous.
If you ask around, it ought to be able to do the mileage over a few seasons on other people's boats. People are often happy to take another competent person on a cross-channel or similar. When I had my last boat, I did a few such trips where a mate of mine was 'skipper' and I just turned up at the last minute as crew. Cruiser rallies and late-season wine runs are suitable trips. also some racing.
These days I don't own a yacht at the moment, but I get across the channel at least once a year on other peoples' boats. I contribute to costs and help with maintenance in a random fashion.
The thing to watch out for is that experience goes out of date!

 

[Corribee Boy]

I could come up with the qualifying miles by other means than my own boat, but then I thought - what would I actually gain? Would I learn things of actual use, or is it simply a vanity exercise to get a bit of paper?

I decided to keep learning things, but not worry with any more qualifications.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Whilst I am sure RYA courses serve a valuable entry point into sailing for many and that has never been truer but there is still a lot of people like myself that have sailed 1000s of miles including ocean passages without a piece of paper. ( not strictly true as I took a former partner on a Competent Crew course and signed up for Day Skipper on the same boat so we could charter in warmer waters many years ago and have retained the ICC which I subsequently applied for) The course was run by the then Westerly sailing school with part time instructors and if I remember correctly the director of the school was a woman who was a YM examiner and ensured the school, it's courses and instructors were up to scratch but that is nearly 40 years ago.
I wonder if the change and commercialisation is similar to what the BSAC (diving) went through when faced with PADDI encroaching on their market as young "wealth" brits started to holiday in the warm waters of the med and fancied diving as a hobby.

 

[Uricanejack]

BSAC. I am both a BSAC and PADI diver.
Getting BSAC was a PIA. Took a whole year. It was frustrating. At the time could only be taken through a local club. I enjoyed it though. Even though I went a did PADI. I learned far more from BSAC.

When I moved to North America. Most people didn't know what is was. Experienced divers did. It always got respect at the dive shop or on the dive charter. When I pulled out a BSAC log instead of a PADI card.

The RYA YM has that extra respect. Among recreational sailors.

Not so sure about the commercial aspect.

 

[capnsensible]

BSAC. I am both a BSAC and PADI diver.
Getting BSAC was a PIA. Took a whole year. It was frustrating. At the time could only be taken through a local club. I enjoyed it though. Even though I went a did PADI. I learned far more from BSAC.

When I moved to North America. Most people didn't know what is was. Experienced divers did. It always got respect at the dive shop or on the dive charter. When I pulled out a BSAC log instead of a PADI card.

The RYA YM has that. Among recreational sailors.

Not so sure about the commercial aspect.

I have had the great pleasure in preparing candidates for Yachtmaster exams from all over the world. All of those chose that for their commercial qualification as it is the requirement across the industry and globally recognised.

I suppose its possible to view it as a 'piece of paper' but for those who use the qualification commercially (and there are many thousands that do so) its their living.

Pretty much in the same way that a commercial pilot, brain surgeon or architect only has a 'piece of paper'!

 

[nortada]

I have had the great pleasure in preparing candidates for Yachtmaster exams from all over the world. All of those chose that for their commercial qualification as it is the requirement across the industry and globally recognised.

I suppose its possible to view it as a 'piece of paper' but for those who use the qualification commercially (and there are many thousands that do so) its their living.

Pretty much in the same way that a commercial pilot, brain surgeon or architect only has a 'piece of paper'!

Am I right in thinking that the MCA rather than the RYA administer the YM program and give the qualification?

Not sure about the others, but pilots are frequently re-checked, not once every 5 years. There again the pilots' potential to 'do significant damage' is much greater!

Are big ship's Masters regularly checked?

 

[capnsensible]

The RYA are the authorised examination authority on behalf of the MCA. This was started in 1973 when it was still the Board of Trade (Department of Transport). My first one, 21/08/90 was DTP approved

There are no rechecks of the Yachtmaster Qualification but it will be withdrawn if an incident occurs and the case warrants it,

Commercial Endorsement requires that First Aid training is updated every three years for the RYA course or five for the STCW course.

Seafarers are also required to be medically fit and must be reassessed every 2 years for ENG1 (unlimited) or 5 years for ML5, restrictions apply.

These are checked every five years by the RYA to renew Commercial Endorsement.

Additionally, for Examiners and Instructors there is a requirement to attend a revalidation course every five years.

No experience of any re checking of Master 200 upwards.

 

[RobbieW]

The RYA are the authorised examination authority on behalf of the MCA. This was started in 1973 when it was still the Board of Trade.

There are no rechecks of the Yachtmaster Qualification but it will be withdrawn if an incident occurs and the case warrants it,

Commercial Endorsement requires that First Aid training is updated every three years for the RYA course or five for the STCW course.

Seafarers are also required to be medically fit and must be reassessed every 2 years for ENG1 (unlimited) or 5 years for ML5, restrictions apply.

No experience of any re checking of Master 200 upwards.

The commercial endorsement also requires the PPR online course to have been successfully completed, http://www.rya.org.uk/courses-train.../professional-practices-responsibilities.aspx, on renewal since c. 2013? or on first issue. I dont believe this is retested at the moment.

 

[capnsensible]

The commercial endorsement also requires the PPR online course to have been successfully completed, http://www.rya.org.uk/courses-train.../professional-practices-responsibilities.aspx, on renewal since c. 2013? or on first issue. I dont believe this is retested at the moment.

Indeed, you also need to be Sea Survival trained too, but neither are retested. There was an idea to do so but its apparently been binned.

STCW has further requirements with Firefighting and Personal Safety and Social Responsiblities, but Ive never been involved with that part of the Industry and would need to google it too!

 

[capnsensible]

Slight ammendment to that, YM Ocean is a pre requirement for Master 200/OOW 500 Unlimited and Ive run that part of the training.

 

[Uricanejack]

Am I right in thinking that the MCA rather than the RYA administer the YM program and give the qualification?

Not sure about the others, but pilots are frequently re-checked, not once every 5 years. There again the pilots' potential to 'do significant damage' is much greater!

Are big ship's Masters regularly checked?

I don't know about the RYA. RYA STCW will require a CPE.
How the RYA deals with CPE, sea time is a mystery to me, Mileage or Time.

Ship Masters and Officers.

STCW Certificates require a CPE (Continued Proficiency Endorsement)
This requires proof of a minimum 12 months sea time as OOW. within the previous 5 years.
A Valid Seafarers or Marine Medical.
Now Manila 2010 now also requires a refresher course on emergency duties. First Aid, Fire Fight, Survival Craft.
There are some exemptions from the sea time requirement. For related positions in the industry, MCA Examiners, Surveyors
and Superintendents.
So if a ship Master maintains a valid CPE, there is no recheck.

If The CPE lapses due to sea time has not been sufficient. The Certificate still exists.
Without a valid CPE. Cannot be an OOW or Higher.
There are a couple of different ways to renew the CPE. I am not really sure of the exact requirements. Sail as a extra SN crewmember, I think minimum 3 months. And or A Refresher course and exam. I think its just an oral exam. I'm not sure.

Damage? Tory Canyon, Amoco Cadiz, Exon Valdez, Herald of Free Enterprise. Costa Concordia. Queen Of The North and loads of others.

 

[lw395]

I could come up with the qualifying miles by other means than my own boat, but then I thought - what would I actually gain? Would I learn things of actual use, or is it simply a vanity exercise to get a bit of paper?

I decided to keep learning things, but not worry with any more qualifications.

I found the process of getting my YM educational, thought provoking, enjoyable and worth the cost.
I had the miles and owned my own boat at the time, but did a week's prep course before the exam.
I realised I'd forgotten some of the theory, having done the shorebased course at night school in my teens.
I learned a few new things too. Some about boat handling and some about organising a crew.
I met some nice people. I had a nice week on a boat.
Having the bit of paper has not been ever so useful, but it's got me a couple of rides on nice boats at other people's expense.

 

[jac]

The cost, and time off work, was a bit of a struggle at the time, but given I still regularly use, decades later, some of the knowledge and skills, not to mention confidence and humility, I gained that week, it was a tremendous bargain and life enhancing experience.

I think the time off work piece is a massively overlooked issue. We were a few years in between two boats so when we bought our last one I thought I should do a CS course . ( Mileage in previous 10 years had dropped below the threshold.) more as a reminder.

IN summary - I couldn't. All courses were Sunday till Friday so I would need to take a week off work.

I don't get that much Annual Leave but more than most but given the need for SWMBO and I to do child care it was going to be a massive inconvenience for us.

I believe DS and CC can be done over multiple weekends so why not other courses, even if it was a Thursday night to Sunday night thing for 2 weeks, would have only meant 2 Fridays taken as AL. Speaking to schools, my understanding was that the RYA felt that 5 days living on a boat was important. I can understand that but is it really? Surely two 3 day sessions must be the equivalent, or even 3, 3 days.

I decided that doing the "hire an instructor for a day" route might be best. Maybe when I get the new boat.

RYA need to realise that it's no longer the 1950's. If you want to get younger people in then they need to recognise that means that many of their target audience in the 30-50 year age bracket will probably have children at home, both parents working and will therefore need to juggle. A more flexible regime therefore helps.

 

[GrahamM376]

The RYA are the authorised examination authority on behalf of the MCA. This was started in 1973 when it was still the Board of Trade (Department of Transport). My first one, 21/08/90 was DTP approved

One point which annoyed me is that despite having a YM Offshore (sail) with commercial endorsement, the RYA refused to issue ICC for power over 10m, stating I would have to do a power boat course to have that. Quoting what could be driven with the commercial endorsement had no bearing they said. Just trying to screw more money from people.

 

[Uricanejack]

Just a curious about something.
I was contemplating challenging a YM next time I am in UK. For no particularly good reason. Other than I feel like it.
I do have a vague notion, off becoming an instructor, if an when I retire. I thought it might help keep me off the couch.
Not sure If I will do RYA. But I thought get the YM explore options later.

Sail and Power conversion? What if you have lots of mileage on both? Not to mention my sail boat does have an engine. and I do occasionally motor. Can you do both at the same time? presuming I don't intend to rent two different boats.
Can you use both types of mileage to come up with the total if one were a bit short?

I get the power boat not including sail. For some strange reason it never really occurred to me they were different. I just thought a sailboat would cover both.