R.Y.A Training - what do you thinlk of it?

[Kukri]

I have never gone anywhere near an RYA Course, apart from doing the shore based yachtmaster theory a couple of times, as a referesher.

I am impressed by some things that the RYA teach - the OXO way of belaying round a cleat, for example - but I have a good friend who is a YM Ocean but who to my mind desperately needs a lot more simple practical experience, as she doesn't really know how to sail or how to handle a boat.

 

[brman]

I have never gone anywhere near an RYA Course, apart from doing the shore based yachtmaster theory a couple of times, as a referesher.

I am impressed by some things that the RYA teach - the OXO way of belaying round a cleat, for example - but I have a good friend who is a YM Ocean but who to my mind desperately needs a lot more simple practical experience, as she doesn't really know how to sail or how to handle a boat.

I don't think this problem is unique to the RYA and I am not sure there is any easy answer. If you want to provide short courses (which is all the average person would probably want) then you cannot teach experience. All you can hope is that the course gives them enough knowledge to allow them to gain that experience without making too many mistakes.

On a more basic level, to answer the question "what do I think of the RYA training" I think one thing the RYA could do better is improve the info on their website! There is a lot there but it is a bit of jumble and finding basic info is not easy. eg
- What are the expected steps someone should take to progress up the training ladder?
- what should you actually get from a course? Course completion cert? cert of competence? what is the difference and what do I need them for? Why should I bother in the first place? When someone says they are "coastal skipper" do they mean theory, practical, coastal CoC or what?

The best I found on the rya site was
http://www.rya.org.uk/courses-training/courses/sail-cruising/Pages/sail-cruising-guide.aspx
This sort of explains it but it took me a while to find it and it certainly does not make clear whether I need to sit an exam or not to be "qualifed".

Something like this:
https://www.hamble.co.uk/rya-training-ladder-learn-to-sail
is a clearer layout but it still doesn't really explain the difference (eg) between "RYA Coastal Skipper / Yachtmaster theory" and "RYA Yacthmaster Coastal Prep + RYA/MCA Exam". Especially as the former is theory plus exams and it says the latter is "theory exam" but the course appears to be afloat.

To be clear, I *think* I know what is what with these courses (ie ignore the RYA/MCA stuff) but it is not exactly clear which adds to the "why should I bother" feeling.........

 

[Uricanejack]

I used to teach sailing. CYA Basic cruising.
I taught it in two very different ways. It was about learning to sail. not navigate,

1. Apparently. Very similar to basic RYA sailing course. Take a boat 3 or 4 students and go sailing for 5 days. Come back. now supposedly capable of skippering 30ish ft boat in familiar waters.
Whole course done on the boat in 5 days.

Or. 2 (my own preference). A series of 4 night classes, A series of 7 lessons, done over typically 2 or 3 weekends. on several different boats. actually 6 lessons plus an exam. 2 lessons fit in a days out on the bay.
Theoretically reached the same standard.
Often a set of coastal navigation night classes could be added.

People choosing the RYA are missing out on a very good alternate way of learning to sail. Not every one wants to go away for a week.
This had some disadvantages. We only went out for the day, anchored for lunch and came back in the evening so we did not go far. No a lot of navigating, we were usually within sight of the school.
I liked it because, I jus did it at weekends.

A big advantage. started 1st couple of lessons on small boats 20 or 22 ft, Then moved up 26,27 28, finished 30 plus ft.
Saw very basic rigs, hanked on sails, slab reefs, also saw, furling sails, much more variety, used outboards and inboards.

I think if the RYA offered a basic sailing course for small cruising boats done in a number of separate day long lessons on different boats particularly different sized.

It would be quite popular. Won't work for everyone.

If found it odd some of the earlier posts are saying the RYA is dropping. Hank on sails and flaking sails from the syllabus.
I have seen the nice shinny boats at the boat show, all furling ect. We cant all afford to by and sail those.
Is the RYA just teaching for the charter market. or do they still just want to teach people how to sail.

 

[[70521]]

is a clearer layout but it still doesn't really explain the difference (eg) between "RYA Coastal Skipper / Yachtmaster theory" and "RYA Yacthmaster Coastal Prep + RYA/MCA Exam". Especially as the former is theory plus exams and it says the latter is "theory exam" but the course appears to be afloat.

That is because there is no difference between Yachtmaster Coastal and Yachtmaster Offshore theory. In fact I've been on boats where candidates for Yachtmaster Coastal and Offshore were being examined at the same time. The only difference was that the candidates had satisfied the different prerequisites and the examiner adjusted the level of expertise that they were looking at.

The Coastal Skipper training course is just that a training course, bit like Day Skipper +, and I understand that few sailing schools offer it. Most people elect to do a pre-exam prep few days with a school.

 

[brman]

That is because there is no difference between Yachtmaster Coastal and Yachtmaster Offshore theory. In fact I've been on boats where candidates for Yachtmaster Coastal and Offshore were being examined at the same time. The only difference was that the candidates had satisfied the different prerequisites and the examiner adjusted the level of expertise that they were looking at.

The Coastal Skipper training course is just that a training course, bit like Day Skipper +, and I understand that few sailing schools offer it. Most people elect to do a pre-exam prep few days with a school.

Well, that just goes to show how confusing the whole thing is
I got my cruising log book in 1988 and at the beginning it shows all the courses in a nice table but the CoC exams are in a separate table. A bit like they are in grey on the RYA pdf I linked to above.
My understanding was that there was no point going for the Certificate of Competence exams unless you want to use the qualification commercially. If all I want is to be confident of my ability and prove my competence (eg for bare boat chartering) I would just do they training course (eg coastal skipper/yachtmaster shorebased and coastal skipper practical).
Am I wrong?

 

[Tomahawk]

I did a dazed kipper theory course many beers ago. I wanted to improve my seamanship. The course was all about passing exams for the sake of passing exams. I lost it when we were told we had to be able to do a single point fix....then the instructer said he had only used the technique once in his sailing experience... and that was for the sake of it.

 

[capnsensible]

That is because there is no difference between Yachtmaster Coastal and Yachtmaster Offshore theory. In fact I've been on boats where candidates for Yachtmaster Coastal and Offshore were being examined at the same time. The only difference was that the candidates had satisfied the different prerequisites and the examiner adjusted the level of expertise that they were looking at.

The Coastal Skipper training course is just that a training course, bit like Day Skipper +, and I understand that few sailing schools offer it. Most people elect to do a pre-exam prep few days with a school.

Schools offer the course but not that many leisure sailors wish to take it.

The course syllabus does however give the ideal preparation for an MCA exam.

 

[sailorsteve]

I have been a Yachtmaster instructor for the last 10 years. I have loved helping students discover and improve skills and techniques to allow them to realise and enjoy their sailing ambitions.

I have also been on the receiving end of the tension between sailing schools' commercial expedient and the need to ensure that candidates are on the "correct" course to ensure that their learning/training objectives are realistic and met.

In my opinion the RYA "cruising scheme" wasn't clear 15 years ago and is becoming more confused. I myself ended up doing the RYA Coastal Skipper CoC after 5 days of "prep" that I thought was for the course completion "Coastal Skipper".

I have always taught people how to sail on the Competent Crew course. My biggest single frustration as an instructor has been the poor/non-existent sailing ability of the majority of candidates for qualifications of Day Skipper and above.

Fwiw I believe that breaking practical courses into ever smaller (commercially attractive?) chunks has led to an increasing disparity in knowledge and experience of students on these "compartmentalised" courses. The flow of learning facilitated on a 5 day course, as a result of varying wind/sea conditions, is lost. Imo this is particularly relevant to learning and refining sailing skills.

For me the removal of the "tidal" distinction was the last straw.

My next instructor qualification re-validation is due next spring. I shall not be updating.

 

[brman]

I have been a Yachtmaster instructor for the last 10 years. I have loved helping students discover and improve skills and techniques to allow them to realise and enjoy their sailing ambitions.

I have also been on the receiving end of the tension between sailing schools' commercial expedient and the need to ensure that candidates are on the "correct" course to ensure that their learning/training objectives are realistic and met.

In my opinion the RYA "cruising scheme" wasn't clear 15 years ago and is becoming more confused. I myself ended up doing the RYA Coastal Skipper CoC after 5 days of "prep" that I thought was for the course completion "Coastal Skipper".

I have always taught people how to sail on the Competent Crew course. My biggest single frustration as an instructor has been the poor/non-existent sailing ability of the majority of candidates for qualifications of Day Skipper and above.

Fwiw I believe that breaking practical courses into ever smaller (commercially attractive?) chunks has led to an increasing disparity in knowledge and experience of students on these "compartmentalised" courses. The flow of learning facilitated on a 5 day course, as a result of varying wind/sea conditions, is lost. Imo this is particularly relevant to learning and refining sailing skills.

For me the removal of the "tidal" distinction was the last straw.

My next instructor qualification re-validation is due next spring. I shall not be updating.

That all makes worrying reading but unfortunately matches what I have found.

It looks to me that there are two problems here.
1) Clarifying the cruising scheme training (and how the CoC relates).
From the responses to my posts here I am still a little confused but found this blog helpful.
http://blog.sailinglogic.co.uk/post...ingy-between-day-skipper-and-yachtmaster.aspx
so why cannot the RYA publish easy to follow info like this?

2) Lack of experience/knowledge of students taking courses.
Here I am less sure as I am one of those trying to decide what course suits my experience and knowledge and what I can "get away with" without having to do all the courses from scratch. On the one hand I believe that, I can rely on my previous experience and a quick swat up from a few books to go straight to a coastal/yachtmaster theory course. Ditto the coastal practical course. But how do I (and my instructors) know I am not deluding myself and will in fact struggle and bring the rest of the students down?

 

[sailorsteve]

I always found reference to the G15 Sail Cruising & Yachtmaster scheme "logbook" was the best way to clarify the scheme. Drilling into a specific course syllabus should confirm the relevance to a student.

W.r.t. Point number 2 Brman, the "good" schools that I've worked for ALWAYS pre-qualify students/candidates through asking them questions in order to ensure that they are on the correct course or prep programme. This is normally by way of a phone conversation following an online booking or enquiry, or at a boat show before booking.

Unqualified online applications, particularly when made on someone else's behalf (family member, friend etc) have been the source of most of the problems of the gap between perceived and actual pre-course competence.

 

[brman]

I always found reference to the G15 Sail Cruising & Yachtmaster scheme "logbook" was the best way to clarify the scheme. Drilling into a specific course syllabus should confirm the relevance to a student.

W.r.t. Point number 2 Brman, the "good" schools that I've worked for ALWAYS pre-qualify students/candidates through asking them questions in order to ensure that they are on the correct course or prep programme. This is normally by way of a phone conversation following an online booking or enquiry, or at a boat show before booking.

Unqualified online applications, particularly when made on someone else's behalf (family member, friend etc) have been the source of most of the problems of the gap between perceived and actual pre-course competence.

I agree that G15 logbook as a fairly good summary of the courses, although mine (1988 version) is a bit out of date, especially relating to the CoC exams. I think problem I am having is more to do with the "why" rather than the "what". ie. I can see there is a coastal skipper practical and what it will teach me. I can also see there is a yacht master coastal exam. My previous assumption was that, as a hobby cruiser, I only need to bother with the practical course as that will give my the skills (if not the experience) for what I want to do and be enough for skippering most bareboat charters. On the other hand, comments on this thread suggest most people don't do the practical but do do the coastal prep and exam courses. Is that because "most people" want a professional qualification as they want to sail professionally or is there some other reason. (or perhaps I need to start a new thread on this!)

I take the point about actually taking with the sailing school though and it is something I will be doing before signing up for any practical course/exam.

EDIT: Btw, one thing I have never been sure about. If someone says they are a "coastal skipper" do you take that to mean they have completion certs for the theory and practical courses or that they have passed the CoC exam?

 

[nortada]

EDIT: Btw, one thing I have never been sure about. If someone says they are a "coastal skipper" do you take that to mean they have completion certs for the theory and practical courses or that they have passed the CoC exam?

For me this is the crux of the matter.

Many people complete all of the shorebased courses and then claim they are qualified at the level they achieved on that series of courses; which is of course not true. As an example, I completed my YM Ocean Shorebased in Cambridge with a class full of Dons who enjoyed the academic challenge. As the course progressed it became apparent that I was the only 'practical' sailor in the room. Out of fairness my classmates had no intention of setting foot on a boat.

For my sail training, I came through the Joint Services Adventurous Training Centre (JSASTC) based at HMS Hornet, Gosport and as, I am sure many other 'graduates' will agree, Paul Wilcox and his team took no prisoners!

One of the things JSASTC insisted on was no leapfrogging. You started as a swabby on an Experience Course and when they considered you were ready you were offered the next level of training. Even then there was no guarantee you would pass! Rank got you nowhere and could possibly have been a handicap.

Possibly the RYA should consider a similar regime of no leapfrogging?

Again as we are discussing qualifications, it has long surprised me that unlike most other similar activities, 'Skippers' can put to sea with no experience, qualifications or insurance.

I recognise that experience brings it's own qualifications, (as all who arrive in Lagos bear testament), so my solution would be to give credit for experience and award a suitable certificate automatically to anyone who can prove suitable experience, before introducing a proper lisencing program.

Stands back and awaits the howls of protest!

 

[brman]

For me this is the crux of the matter.

Many people complete all of the shorebased courses and then claim they are qualified at the level they achieved on that series of courses; which is of course not true. As an example, I completed my YM Ocean Shorebased in Cambridge with a class full of Dons who enjoyed the academic challenge. As the course progressed it became apparent that I was the only 'practical' sailor in the room. Out of fairness my classmates had no intention of setting foot on a boat.

For my sail training, I came through the Joint Services Adventurous Training Centre (JSASTC) based at HMS Hornet, Gosport and as, I am sure many other 'graduates' will agree, Paul Wilcox and his team took no prisoners!

One of the things JSASTC insisted on was no leapfrogging. You started as a swabby on an Experience Course and when they considered you were ready you were offered the next level of training. Even then there was no guarantee you would pass! Rank got you nowhere and could possibly have been a handicap.

Possibly the RYA should consider a similar regime of no leapfrogging?

Again as we are discussing qualifications, it has long surprised me that unlike most other similar activities, 'Skippers' can put to sea with no experience, qualifications or insurance.

I recognise that experience brings it's own qualifications, (as all who arrive in Lagos bear testament), so my solution would be to give credit for experience and award a suitable certificate automatically to anyone who can prove suitable experience, before introducing a proper lisencing program.

Stands back and awaits the howls of protest!

Trouble is, no leapfrogging would just put off a large number of hobby sailors who have no legal need for the courses/qualifications in the first place. Especially if they have already been sailing for the last 20 years.....

It is a bit like when I did my electrical training. I have been around electrics most of my life so just did a few short courses to get "qualified" then got my insurance and started trading. But if you read electricians forums you will see that most "time served" electricians think that "5 day wonders" should be banned and everyone should do a 2 year min apprenticeship. Needless to say, neither is right. When I did my courses my instructor said the worse electricians he had had to teach were the older guys who though they knew what they were doing. Us keen to learn, engineering degree educated, students were a breath of fresh air to him. On the other hand I have seen "5 day wonders" posting on the forums and their lack of basic knowledge can makes me cringe.
Like sailing, when doing electrical work there is more to learn than an outsider would think, also like sailing, getting it wrong can kill people. But, like being an electrician, I think there is no one route suites all approach to giving sailors the knowledge and experience they need.

One thought though, I like the idea that all students should have to do a telephone interview before being accepted on a course. (always assuming the training schools can afford to turn away candidates). I also suspect that there is too much of an expectation that someone completing a course should automatically get a certificate and be deemed "competent". If more people were "failed" on course (as well as exams) then passing would be more of a indication of ability?
Comparing again with my electrical training, one of the courses I did had 40% pass rate nationally with plenty of "old hands" failing it multiple times. That did mean that having that qualification meant something and held more respect. Although it did not stop the old hands being derogatory about us 5 day wonders who passed it first time

 

[Uricanejack]

As an outside observer.

The confusing thing about the RYA system. Is its dual nature. On one hand for the recreational amateur. On the other for the would be professional.
My understanding. The RYA don't do the training. The RYA establishes the standard the schools train students to achieve.

Up to DS or ICC its about learning to sail and skipper a small boat. How many recreational sailors actually want to go further?

 

[nortada]

As an outside observer.

The confusing thing about the RYA system. Is its dual nature. On one hand for the recreational amateur. On the other for the would be professional.
My understanding. The RYA don't do the training. The RYA establishes the standard the schools train students to achieve.

Up to DS or ICC its about learning to sail and skipper a small boat. How many recreational sailors actually want to go further?

I believe DS qualifies a skipper to operate in known waters, during the hours of daylight?

Hardly a qualification to skipper a vessel in many conditions.

More like a Mate of Watch, under the watchful eye of a CS? Nobody would take a Mate of Watch ticket so why not just recognise reality and up grade Day Skipper to Skipper. I understand that CS is already called Coastal Yachtmaster, which again is rather non-sensical.

Then we have the ICC which is given automatically to any DS and is recognised as a worldwide certificate of competence?

Doesn't really hang together too well.

Given a free hand; I would make Comp Crew, Mate of Watch (just a play on words). Turn DS into Skipper qualified to sail anywhere and incorporate ICC into the Skipper ticket. I would combine Coastal and Yachtmaster into a single proffesioal qualification for those who plan work in the sailing industry. With an examining board separate from the training organisation.

Trouble is this streamlining would reduce the RYA's opportunities to make money and so will never see the light of day.

 

[capnsensible]

As an outside observer.

The confusing thing about the RYA system. Is its dual nature. On one hand for the recreational amateur. On the other for the would be professional.
My understanding. The RYA don't do the training. The RYA establishes the standard the schools train students to achieve.

Up to DS or ICC its about learning to sail and skipper a small boat. How many recreational sailors actually want to go further?

Spot on.

The understanding of how each skill level works is easy if one considers the limits on commercial endorsement of a sailing certificate of competence.

Day Skipper (not examined) Up to 20 miles from a safe haven.

Yachtmaster Coastal 60 miles

Yachtmaster Offshore 150 miles

Yachtmaster Ocean Unlimited.

Of course, a leisure sailor is unconstrained by those limits, but it gives perspective.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I believe DS qualifies a skipper to operate in known waters, during the hours of daylight?

Hardly a qualification to skipper a vessel in many conditions.

More like a Mate of Watch, under the watchful eye of a CS? Nobody would take a Mate of Watch ticket so why not just recognise reality and up grade Day Skipper to Skipper. I understand that CS is already called Coastal Yachtmaster, which again is rather non-sensical.

Then we have the ICC which is given automatically to any DS and is recognised as a worldwide certificate of competence?

Doesn't really hang together too well.

Given a free hand; I would make Comp Crew, Mate of Watch (just a play on words). Turn DS into Skipper qualified to sail anywhere and incorporate ICC into the Skipper ticket. I would combine Coastal and Yachtmaster into a single proffesioal qualification for those who plan work in the sailing industry. With an examining board separate from the training organisation.

Trouble is this streamlining would reduce the RYA's opportunities to make money and so will never see the light of day.

There are two aspects to the Day Skipper ticket that are relevant for competency. One is that the the Day Skipper can sail a 'familiar boat in familiar waters' during the hours of daylight, but has sufficient knowledge to manage night hours; the Day Skipper should have at least 8 hours of night sailing under the belt by the time of successfully completing the course. The other aspect is that the Day Skipper can be converted to a professional qualification by having it endorsed for commercial use. This requires the holder to have a medical, VHF and first aid certificate. Typically boatmen in marinas, maybe small day boat operators for tourists, dive boat operators might all have the conversion to commercial day skipper.

The school should not issue the practical course completion certificate unless all aspects of the sylabus have been covered and understood and at least demonstrated. It is not a formal test, as you probably know, but, if for example, there are light winds and a return to a man overboard under sail has not been demonstrated by the student, then that could be a valid reason for not issuing the certificate. The Day Skipper can also be issued as a 'Watch Leader' certificate for those who sail on large training yachts and are not interested in the skills required to berth a larger vessel but can organise and manage a watch, including all navigation aspects.

CSYM and YM are examined separately from the training organisation, it has always been that way. The scheme 'hangs together' well but the RYA have made a dogs breakfast out of describing it in all the media. I suspect that some person drew it out on a table matt initially and that was the format that someone kid that can draw text boxes in power point eventually drew up.

 

[capnsensible]

Interestingly, the term Yachtmaster Coastal was introduced in 1938. The fee for the written and oral exam was £1 10 shillings.

 

[[163233]]

Then we have the ICC which is given automatically to any DS and is recognised as a worldwide certificate of competence?

The ICC is just so that when you rock up at a boat rental in Bongobongoland the poor old Bongolese boatman doesn't have to consult a massive book of boating qualifications of the world to ensure you meet the local legal requirements.

 

[nortada]

The ICC is just so that when you rock up at a boat rental in Bongobongoland the poor old Bongolese boatman doesn't have to consult a massive book of boating qualifications of the world to ensure you meet the local legal requirements.

Yep shame the ICC lacks any creditable training so Mr Bongo is in good faith releasing his boat to somebody who may have no real qualifications and so my wreck it and others and kill himself and others to boot!

OK, OK I know many Yachtmasters are equally adept at wrecking boats etc etc etc.