Quick anchor windlass: has become noisy and often trips circuit breaker

B

BelleSerene

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 Sep 2005
Messages
3,423
Visit site
I have a Quick 1000W windlass on our boat. It’s 12 years old. It has become increasingly noisy in operation, and now often trips the circuit breaker if it’s been winding for a while. Recently, it sometimes doesn’t respond at all, although the click of the solenoid proves power is still supplied. I have found that a judicious kick to the motor below decks enables it to respond.

I serviced and greased the capstan gypsy last year, but have never ventured into the motor, or for that matter any 'gearbox' that might connect the horizontal motor to the vertical capstan.

Can anyone please suggest how I might rejuvenate it? I am out cruising, though well tooled up, and could attempt a strip myself or take it for someone better qualified to attack in a port town.
 
Good chance your brushes are worn or sticking ,
Some thing to be a where of is them gearbox have oil in them but to check I found on my old boat , I had to taken the windlass to bits to get to the fill .
The problem you may have is spiting the windlass to remove it ,

Edit
Also it could be your gearbox bearing , I found that mine was running slower and slower , and it ended up being the bearing , but it didn't trip the breaker .
 
Last edited:
As Vic says, if it getting noisier I would definitely check the oil level. My Quick windlass has a fill/level plug which you can access once you have removed the motor cowling, although it is difficult to spot at first.

Richard
 
As Vic and Richard say, I agree with their suggestions. If you find an absence of oil (and maybe the oil replaced by (sea)water) then it is likely the mechanical seals for the shaft are damaged. (these are the seals, bearings that support the main shaft, as it enters the gearbox, to which the gypsy is attached.) If this is the case replacing the oil will be a temporary measure and you need to replace the seal(s). I don't think this is difficult nor expensive - though sourcing the seal might take some time.

You would need to remove the gear box (most easily done by removing the whole windlass) and if as you say you have tools on board is not difficult - but if the windlass has not previously been dismantled you may find some of the stainless bolts are fused into any aluminium.

Short term I'd replace the oil - if this is the issue - and leave dismantling until you are not at anchor.

Jonathan
 
As I said I think getting it apart may be his problem .
I got my bearing from simply breaking also the seals .
To check the oil and top up was almost impossible the way it was fitted on my then Dufour without taken it to bits .
Good luck
 
I don't know the Quick windlass but they are all engineered very similarly.

Most windlass have a manual override - some method of retrieving the chain, usually with a winch handle. I'd try this first - it may give you a feel if the windlass/gearbox is at fault or the motor. Pull in some chain by hand, secure the rest of the chain - you now have a couple of metres of chain on deck - try to manually retrieve this chain using the manual method - it should be easy - if its not the gear box might be dry (or full of seawater, rust and mud :(

The easiest way to remove the windlass would be to unbolt the motor and 'possibly' unbolt the windlass from the bulkhead and 'simply' lift out. Sometimes the windlass has been installed, gearbox then bolted on and finally the motor attached - it depends how much room there is (and usually the windlass is installed with no thought that someone might want to service it).


With my fettish I've been involved with a few issues on windlass (usually long suffering, unloved and located in the worst place possible for a component made of dissimilar metals and an electric motor).

As Vic said - good luck
 
I had a thread some, many months ago, on windlass and servicing and I'm sure no-one took much notice (in fact one forum member encouragingly suggested I had an anal fascination with 'anchoring'.) There are delightful people around - maybe I could be less sensitive

But I am a glutton for punishment.

Windlass are amazingly forgiving and resilient but when they fail they fail disastrously - and commonly the remedy is - buy a new one. I hope in this case - I'm wrong


When installed the motor should be sprayed with lanolin. The casing is mild steel (its ambition is to rust) spray it. Commissioners (of yachts) don't like to do this, the lanolin looks nasty. I have checked windlass installations and some are installed with the chain falling onto the motor - excellent environment for abrasion and corrosion. Most modern windlass can have the motor fixed opposite the fall of chain - sometimes its easier to do the wrong thing (because the cables are too short.....???)


Many older windlass appear to have had an issue that when they were installed the installer did not accept that stainless bolts and aluminium castings are incompatible and the 2 fuse, corrode, together. Consequently when you come to disassemble it is impossible. Solution - take the windlass out, now, disassemble and coat the stainless components such that they cannot fuse with any aluminium. If you leave this till trouble occurs - you may need an angle grinder - and a new windlass.

This really needs to be done at your earliest convenience.


The shaft connecting the gypsy to the gearbox can also fuse, salt and mud in the bearings, disassemble every 2 years, or earlier, and grease with decent marine grease. Often the shaft is not serviced and slowly the windlass slows - because the shaft has seized. In the extreme it can be impossible to remove the shaft.


Finally the gearbox needs to be serviced at least every 3 years. This commonly demands removing the gearbox, emptying of oil and replacing the oil. But if you have a sight glass, more common on modern windlass, check as often as possible


It i inevitable that one day you will stress the windlass - the windlass will take a snatch load. You might use a snubber, reducing or removing snatch loads - but one day you will be retrieving your anchor a Mono will create a big wash and at an inopportune moment the chain will go taut as the wash passes under you bow. The windlass is tough - the various bearings - less so. You will not bend the shaft, they are not bullet proof, but bomb proof, the bearings (which also keep the water out) are bit more delicate. Over enthusiastic power setting of your anchor (a fashionable suggestion) without recommending taking the load off the windlass may also damage mechanical seals (bearings). A short strop attached to a strong point (cleat?) and a chain hook on the chain will take the load off the windlass (and can be used as a back up to your snubber).


Reiterating - windlass are forgiving and amazingly resilient - but when they fail - it can be amazingly inconvenient (and expensive).

Jonathan
 
Last edited:
Neeves said:
Windlass are amazingly forgiving and resilient but when they fail they fail disastrously - and commonly the remedy is - buy a new one. I hope in this case - I'm wrong
Click to expand...

Thanks all. Thank you Jonathan. No, you were not wrong!

I got the thing out in Norderney and it had multiple problems. Shaft bearings in a terrible way and shaft seal leaking. That explained the horrible noise of late and probably the source of the corrosion. At least one brush kaput (I didn’t actually open the motor in the end) which would explain it not operating in one direction. Loads of corrosion: piles of seeming aluminium powder inside, a hole in the casing, a crack in the flange linking motor and gear unit. Horrible. I gave up.

Now I need to replace it. Quick have discontinued their Antares line and it seems their Aleph line have the same deck footprint. I’ll try to call ahead to Kiel, but the main chandlery's website seems to show they don’t stock this model. Any bright ideas welcome!
 
BelleSerene said:
Thanks all. Thank you Jonathan. No, you were not wrong!

I got the thing out in Norderney and it had multiple problems. Shaft bearings in a terrible way and shaft seal leaking. That explained the horrible noise of late and probably the source of the corrosion. At least one brush kaput (I didn’t actually open the motor in the end) which would explain it not operating in one direction. Loads of corrosion: piles of seeming aluminium powder inside, a hole in the casing, a crack in the flange linking motor and gear unit. Horrible. I gave up.

Now I need to replace it. Quick have discontinued their Antares line and it seems their Aleph line have the same deck footprint. I’ll try to call ahead to Kiel, but the main chandlery's website seems to show they don’t stock this model. Any bright ideas welcome!
Click to expand...

If you got it in bits, that she the hardest part , mine was just as you say , I replaced the bearing and put new seals in and it was find till I sold it 18 months later , we still in contact with the new owner and he not said he had any problem with it .
Unless you really want a new unit , I would overhaul the one you have , seals and bearing will cost you almost nothing compare what a new windless will cost you .
 
I'm impressed you removed the windlass so easily - the ones I have been involved with, and Vic's experience, are all a nightmare.

When we changed our chain from 8mm to 6mm we needed a new gypsy. Gypsies are inordinately expensive and we decided to upgrade the windlass which was then 15 years old. Our original was a Muir Atlantic and it has given good service, though the solenoid kept 'sticking'. We shopped around and Maxwell offered the best deal. The Maxwell carries a 6mm gypsy but the 'rest' of it is sized for 8mm chain and we optioned a 1,000 watt motor. The Maxwell fitted almost exactly into the space vacated by the Muir - I had to fill the bolt holes and re-drill but that was easy - and the wiring, unsurprisingly, was identical.

The new Maxwell has a sight glass for oil (I think this might be common on many windlass now). Removing the gear box is simply a case of untwisting a large thread collar, the motor is held on (to the gear box) with 2 bolts and the shaft is removed by taking off the gypsy and releasing a cotter pin under the gear box - and lift the shaft out (to clean and re-grease). After the contortions necessary to disassemble the Muir the Maxwell is a revallation - but as with the introduction of sight glasses - maybe they are all equally easy to service now.

I'd check how to service any new windlass before buying - ease of disassembly is advantageous.

The Maxwell retrieves chain much faster than the Muir - but that might be a result of the chain being lighter.

Maxwell is part of Vetus and should be available anywhere.

If you go the new route - when you get the new windlass - check all the stainless bolts for grease and/or Duralac and treat where appropriate. Check the shaft for grease and note how to fill the gearbox (in the future). The Maxwell, you take off the sight glass which is hexagonal. but you need to take the gearbox off as the sight glass is on the side. Maybe paint the exterior of the motor casing, an extra coat cannot do any harm, and then spray with lanolin (pray with lanolin when it is all installed and wired up - very messy if you do it pre-installation). When you install make sure the motor is as far from the fall of the chain as possible (consider adding something to keep any water (brought in by the chain) off the motor - a flange of some sort.

Its a good idea to have a larger motor - it gives you power in reserve if you have a lot of chain deployed - but think that the larger motor is 'longer' and it might not fit where the old motor was located, so check!

If it is possible I'd follow Vic's advise and re-furbish - except you are re-furbishing an old windlass and you might decide its not worth it. I'm actually impressed how long windlass will last so provided the basics are sound - its a good option. The motor might be a bit grotty - but I don't think they are that expensive (they are a commodity). But by the time you add up all the bits and pieces - the new option might look attractive.

If you were thinking of changing chain, size, and you are buying a new windlass - now is the time to do it - you will not want to buy a new gypsy (I can assure you!)

Most of the common windlass makers have a good reputation - I don't see horror stories. The horror stories are simply a result of poor installation or no servicing (or both). Most are based on the same technology and design (which has not changed for decades). I think you will find a new model, similar to your own - simply 'modernised'.

So Quick, Lofrans, Maxwell, Muir, Lewmar - and I know there are a few others - I don't think you will go wrong. I suspect decisions will be based on price - shop around. Some windlass are made from components sourced in China and some are still exclusively made in 'the west' and are priced accordingly. There is nothing wrong with Chinese components - when they are backed by a big brand with a reputation to defend.

I'm interested in how it turn out.

Jonathan
 
Interesting comments as I’ve just had to replace our windlass. It was an old Lofrans and I suspect it was over twenty years old. We’ve had it 14 years but the motor finally corroded to the point of no return.

Several points:

The new Lofrans X2 fitted exactly the same holes in the deck. (I had to make two holes larger but they were all on the same centres).

The X2 Lofrans comes with a robust plastic casing for the motor complete with gasket and with cable glands in the flange of the gearbox for the 100 amp cables to exit. It might not be waterproof to IP58 or IP68 but it’s a huge improvement to just having the motor being sprayed and dripped on by seawater.

(IFWIW I painted the whole motor and connections etc with waterproof grease before securing the cover over it.)

Other makes of windlass are available but this is my experience with the one I bought.
 
John Morris good to see you contributing to the posting lately, then just moderated ,it great to have another actual Sailor given his experience then the countless armchair once .
Anyway back to windlass , one of the first job we did when refitting the boat we have now is change the old 8mm S&L windlass for a Lofram cayman 1000w like most windlass it has its down side , the cables are build in to the motor , which mean you can't put bigger cables if you needed a longer run to the solenoid ,
but on the other hand , less change of corrosion,
also the cork gasket between the motor cover and the house isn't much good , you would think a unit that is going to get a constant soaking , would be more water tight .
I used a sealer instead of the cork gasket and we also made a canvas cover to help with sea water and the sun . 18 months on it still looks like new , we remover the motor cover in Dec to check for corrosion around the motor , so far so good
The other thing we done is remove the chain guard which is held in with SS bolts ( aluminum and stainless steel not a good combination ) and used Duralac.
Also on any other fitting like the gipsy brake .
the only problem we had was a breaker tripping ,
it took a while to sort this out , in the end listen to advise from two different guys that fit lofram windlass for a living ended up putting a bigger breaker then what Lofram recommended . Problem sorted .
I take the attitude that like everything else on the boat it need constant checking , especially when it comes to anything that in contact with sea water .
The ( if not Broken then leave alone ) is fine but gear do need servicing .
OP , you Done really well to get it apart , repair it , use a barrier cream to fit it all back .
Now you got it apart it won't take you long to pall it apart again to check the seals and wear .
 
John,

It was valuable that you contributed - but

I think illustrated here is evidence that people don't service their windlass, which reinforces a thread (and I know my constant threads on 'anchoring' upset people :) ) I had on windlass servicing. In the grand scheme of things they are not that expensive - but when they fail its a major inconvenience.

They, windlass (not the owners) are dead simple - though usually very inaccessible (again, not the owners!) - they don't need much attention.


If you have any influence - its a topic ripe for a decent article.

Jonathan
 
Last edited:
Neeves said:
John,

It was valuable that you contributed - but

I think illustrated here is evidence that people don't service their windlass, which reinforces a thread (and I know my constant threads on 'anchoring' upset people :) ) I had on windlass servicing. In the grand scheme of things they are not that expensive - but when they fail its a major inconvenience.

They, windlass (not the owners) are dead simple - though usually very inaccessible (again, not the owners!) - they don't need much attention.


If you have any influence - its a topic ripe for a decent article.

Jonathan
Click to expand...

Thank you. Not sure how much more servicing would have helped my windlass failure. The bearings, gearbox etc are all still perfectly serviceable. I used to spray the motor now and again, but an unprotected motor in the anchor locker is corrosion and failure in waiting...

I suppose I could have unbolted it every few years and applied some anti corrosion treatment?

Not sure if I have any influence over magazine articles! Write to the editor...?
 
john_morris_uk said:
I suppose I could have unbolted it every few years and applied some anti corrosion treatment?

Not sure if I have any influence over magazine articles! Write to the editor...?
Click to expand...

I suspect you might underestimate your influence?

As you imply the motors are commonly encased in painted mild steel - in an anchor locker?! They commonly have holes in the casing (I assume part of cooling) - in an anchor locker -

A flange might protect them from sea water sprayed as the chain is retrieved - not a difficult nor expensive to add to the supply.

PBO/YM surely have influence (and might raise questions) - none of windlass technology nor servicing is rocket science. Its just out of sight out of mind.

Sorry I don't have the background, wrong loyalties - if PBO/YM don't have the background in their stable - they should (quickly).

And, more importantly, it, an article, seems to meet a need.

Jonathan
 
I think that the cause may be the DC electric motor. Inevitably windlass motors will have permanent magnets in the stator (they needn't; they could, at much greater reliability imho, be like starter motors but we can go into that later).

These magnets will be made from a powder which has been sintered or chemically bonded to make a curved lump and then this lump will have been glued to the inside of the steel case. There are probably four such magnets in your electric motor. The glue starts to fail after a few years in a damp environment, and then one or more of the permanent magnets moves around and interferes with the rotor. If the motor has had a knock that can accelerate this process. Once interfering with the rotor the motor starts to stall, draw more current and generally is on its way out.

I'm now on my fourth electric motor, not the same model or brand as yours - I have an SL Sprint 1500 - but what you describe sounds distressingly familiar! The good news is that replacing the electric motor is pretty easy.

While I generally agree that servicing the windlass is worthwhile, essential even, it can not mitigate this problem.

PS: that I'm on my fourth motor isn't as bad as it sounds. Motor 1 was installed by the builder without its boot being properly placed, so the motor filled with water in its first season and just rusted solid. Motor two was defective on delivery and never worked due to a winding fault. Motor three had a damn hard life yet lasted 11 years. Motor four is 3 years old and in mid-season form, it should last some years yet.
 
Last edited:
Thanks JN for the thoughtful advice and experience.

I would have preferred to renovate the windlass, but so many things - shaft bearings, alu case, brushes, further crack in case - were problematic that it's hard to see how that wouldn’t have ill repaid a lot of hours and some ingenuity.

So it’s a purchase, and preferably on my travels as I’m off cruising abroad. Stocks seem low and supply lines slow - people blame the silly everyone’s on holiday here in Northern Germany/ Scandiland. I’m planning to stick with my existing 10mm chain (39’ Beneteau) although for some reason 8mm gypsies seem more common? I have kept the old gypsy in case I need to retrofit it to a new windlass.

Also, I don’t get how the pics I see of windlass seem to show the motor positioned right beneath the fall of chain?! My old one had the motor aligned athwartships, with the chain falling forward of the motor. See this almost direct (but unavailable!) replacement [ http://www.quicknauticalequipment.com/?lng=en&cs1=01&ms1=2&ms2=1&ms3=13&ms4=169 ] or this smaller variant which I'll check to see if I could fit instead. [ http://www.quicknauticalequipment.com/?lng=en&cs1=01&ms1=2&ms2=1&ms3=13&ms4=244 ]

Am I being stupid or does this mean the motor gets in the way of the falling chain?!
 
BelleSerene said:
Thanks JN for the thoughtful advice and experience.

I would have preferred to renovate the windlass, but so many things - shaft bearings, alu case, brushes, further crack in case - were problematic that it's hard to see how that wouldn’t have ill repaid a lot of hours and some ingenuity.

So it’s a purchase, and preferably on my travels as I’m off cruising abroad. Stocks seem low and supply lines slow - people blame the silly everyone’s on holiday here in Northern Germany/ Scandiland. I’m planning to stick with my existing 10mm chain (39’ Beneteau) although for some reason 8mm gypsies seem more common? I have kept the old gypsy in case I need to retrofit it to a new windlass.

Also, I don’t get how the pics I see of windlass seem to show the motor positioned right beneath the fall of chain?! My old one had the motor aligned athwartships, with the chain falling forward of the motor. See this almost direct (but unavailable!) replacement [ http://www.quicknauticalequipment.com/?lng=en&cs1=01&ms1=2&ms2=1&ms3=13&ms4=169 ] or this smaller variant which I'll check to see if I could fit instead. [ http://www.quicknauticalequipment.com/?lng=en&cs1=01&ms1=2&ms2=1&ms3=13&ms4=244 ]

Am I being stupid or does this mean the motor gets in the way of the falling chain?!
Click to expand...

You can set the motor to what ever angle you want .
 
A Vic say you can swing the motor around.

On some you can only align the motor at 4 x 90 degree positions on others the motor can be any angle you like. I've seen them installed with the chain falling and impingeing on the motor and this is shear laziness on the part of the installer and some criticism for the new owner not knowing or lacking attention to detail. Ideally you want the motor at 180 degrees to the fall of the chain.

In your case you are part dictated by what you buy and what you've got.

If you are using the same cabling, seems logical - but I'm a Scot, then that dictates where the motor will be - because the cables have to fit the motor. I'm not an electrician but I cannot think you want to have extension jointed - in the locker. Some arrangements have all the holes in the structure already there and unless you fill up quite large areas you are again forced into an arrangement that might not be ideal, because the 'hawser' hole is too near where the new motor will be.

Motor appear to be standard sizes (I've only check this by looking) so as long as your new windlass fits roughly where the old one was then the new motor will take up no more room than the old (assuming the fall of the chain on old and new are also similar). If you option a bigger motor it will be longer (that's my observation - worth checking) and it may then be too long for your existing holes etc. I would not discourage you from optioning a bigger motor - but thus then means you might need to fill holes (not difficult - but another days work by the time you wait for it to set off!

Unless you buy the same windlass, or a windlass from the same manufacturer of a similar size - it is unlikely the old gypsy will fit the new windlass. The shafts are all different, slightly. If might have second hand value - as might other parts off the old windlass.

If you cannot avoid having the motor nearer than you like to the fall of the chain - add a baffle so that water is kept off the motor. If you can paint it as soon as you get it, then spray with lanolin, or something similar after installation you have done more than most will do. If when you service you take the motor out, clean the old lanolin, respray - you will maximise casing life.

And JDC is correct - motor casings are mild steel because they form part of the magnetic arrangement (field) of the motor - but I cannot believe this cannot be overcome.

Someone recently mentioned a plastic casing for a motor - but that might have been an outer cover - but it does seem the way to go.

Basically unprotected mild steel in the wettest part of a yacht - madness.


However windlass are very forgiving - when you consider how they are abused - and seems to have a life of about 10-15 years. Longer if you care for them. They are not that expensive - but if the stainless and aluminium lock up they can be almost impossible to remove - and its not the cost that is the issue but the time and frustration - that shortens the owners life :( In fact the cost is inversely proportional to the frustration that can develop.

I'd have said most yachts are of a size to use 8mm chain and your chain is a bit hefty for your size of yacht - I've seen bigger yachts with 8mm chain. I think this may be the reason there are more windlass around for 8mm chain. Don't be tempted to take a windlass 'designed' for 8mm chain with a 10mm gypsy - the motor might be a bit small. But if you are offered a 12mm windlass with a 10mm gypsy - that's a good move, unless it is overly expensive.

Jonathan

edit

If the new windlass is the same rating as the old one you should be able to use the same cables and circuit breaker. If you increase motor size you might need to buy a new circuit breaker and install new power cables - something to think about. The foot switch arrangement should be the same as the old one, wiring and actual switches. But check the old with the new - but it might save you a few Euros and having new cables made up would be another major hassle.

close edit
 
Last edited:
What I mean is , the gearbox fix to the top part of the windlass with four bolts , and you can line it up within tho four direction as you said 4X90 degre position in other words , you can the motor facing one way and the chain inlet the other side , the motor normally has a cover .
What going to restrict the OP is the room he has in his anchor locker ,
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top