Questions on moving to the Med

[jfm]

Looks like all steam ahead. Shipping quote €22k ex tax. Berth finding now under way, as the boat is only 19.6M LOA it almost feels a waste buying a 23M mooring. Will head down for a few days next week with the family to have a scout around but I see on Inwards website thy have 18M x 5.49M berths in Cap Ferrat, having never been would anyone know if they have a 10% tolerance on LOA as the beam looks ok.

Thanks for the heads up on coding, I was going to use a local known surveyor but your points are valid and have made me think again.

I do have two bookings on the boat in the UK for May and June so the move may be mid season subject to berth and shipping.

Yes, 10% tolerance on length, nil on beam obviously.

Which marina? Beaulieu or St Jean Cap Ferrat? Bioth very nice, though the hinterland for days when you don't go out of the boat isn't as nice as Antibes

 

[EME]

I cant remember CAP Ferrat boats, but 10% on LOA is the norm.

Cap Ferrat is not best served for shops & 'other stuff' but have a look for yourself. What you will not see is what a pain it can be getting there from the airport in mid-Summer by car/taxi. I frequently drop down from La Turbie on the A8 through Cap d'Ail as getting through Nice can be such a pain.

 

[MRC]

I have just been informed that most marinas no longer allow +10% LOA as of 1st Jan this year. The marina staff have been requesting boat registration docs to show LOA vs Berth L

 

[jfm]

I have just been informed that most marinas no longer allow +10% LOA as of 1st Jan this year. The marina staff have been requesting boat registration docs to show LOA vs Berth L

Happy to be proven wrong but that seems incorrect to me. Can you comment on the reliability of the source? No berth owner/renter i know in Antibes (which is a lot of people) has mentioned being asked for reg docs, and i have received mailings (as a berth owner) from antibes port recently on other admin issues and there has been no mention of this. Abolishing the 10% is massive, because 95% of boats wont fit where they are, and for practical reasons the ports cannot just evict them.

 

[BartW]

Happy to be proven wrong but that seems incorrect to me. Can you comment on the reliability of the source? No berth owner/renter i know in Antibes (which is a lot of people) has mentioned being asked for reg docs, and i have received mailings (as a berth owner) from antibes port recently on other admin issues and there has been no mention of this. Abolishing the 10% is massive, because 95% of boats wont fit where they are, and for practical reasons the ports cannot just evict them.

John, 3 years in a row, the capitainery asked my boat papers when we arrived in Cassis, and charged me for the length written on the docs.
Luckyly for me these documents only mention 7,45m length, (=waterline) while the boat is 29ft LOA. (Belgium authoroty's were not carefull)

so for me its an advantage that they work with the papers
Its the only place I know where they do it this way,

 

[CMJ]

Bit of a shaggy dog story.. In France a commercial boat that is crewed gets big tax advantages. Virtually every boat registered as commercial takes those advantages, and the douanes who inspect frequently will always (quite reasonably) assume any commercial boat they come across is taking those advantages. One of the requirements for the tax benefit is the boat is crewed. So if a boat is found with commercial papers and NOT crewed (eg on bareboat charter) the douanes get quite antsy and assume you are taking the tax breaks but not following the "crewed" rules. Even if you're not taking the tax breaks, proving you're not will spoil your day. You can't put an innocent bareboat customer in that position: it's like pushing him out among unleashed lions. No-one in the charter business offers commercial reg boats to bareboat customers

Bareboat chartering does not ever get the tax breaks so if you want to offer bareboats for charter you need to reg them as pleasure boats then the customers do not get hassled when the douanes inspect them

Ah - thanks! That makes sense......if there's anything I've noticed about boating in the Med, it's that there seems to be loads of policing going on. In the UK, whilst our boat's been out for charter, it's been inspected on two occasions by the MCA for compliance (fair enuff – passed both times - phew) but we've never had the cops on it!!.....and I remember the previous owner telling me that when it was in the Med (for the 1st 9 months of its life), they got boarded by someone quite official and had to pay fines as there was no charter agreement in place for that particular moment (I guess due to it being a 'Commercial Vessel' and if the owners are using it, it still needs to be a charter I believe).

 

[jfm]

John, 3 years in a row, the capitainery asked my boat papers when we arrived in Cassis, and charged me for the length written on the docs.
Luckyly for me these documents only mention 7,45m length, (=waterline) while the boat is 29ft LOA. (Belgium authoroty's were not carefull)

so for me its an advantage that they work with the papers
Its the only place I know where they do it this way,

Yes, I always have to show my papers when visiting another port, but usually they charge for the full size of the berth you are using, even if you are too short for it. So your deal in Cassis seems nice. (This is a totally different point to the 10% matter)

 

[jfm]

Ah - thanks! That makes sense......if there's anything I've noticed about boating in the Med, it's that there seems to be loads of policing going on. In the UK, whilst our boat's been out for charter, it's been inspected on two occasions by the MCA for compliance (fair enuff – passed both times - phew) but we've never had the cops on it!!.....and I remember the previous owner telling me that when it was in the Med (for the 1st 9 months of its life), they got boarded by someone quite official and had to pay fines as there was no charter agreement in place for that particular moment (I guess due to it being a 'Commercial Vessel' and if the owners are using it, it still needs to be a charter I believe).

Yes that's right, there must ALWAYS be a charter contract in place for a CV, even if the owner is using it. And it must be a CREWED charter contract, not a bareboat. Which is why you cannot have a boat registered as CV then bareboat charter it. Unless you like your customers being made to pay e500 fines every weekend

 

[BartW]

In France a commercial boat that is crewed gets big tax advantages. Virtually every boat registered as commercial takes those advantages, and the douanes who inspect frequently will always (quite reasonably) assume any commercial boat they come across is taking those advantages. One of the requirements for the tax benefit is the boat is crewed. So if a boat is found with commercial papers and NOT crewed (eg on bareboat charter) the douanes get quite antsy and assume you are taking the tax breaks but not following the "crewed" rules.

Question:
do you need to setup a chartering company in France or can you run the Business from a foreign company (ex UK or Belgium) ?
also for the crew, and all social security involved;
the work is done in France, do you need to employ staff in a french company, or can you send over crew employed in a foreign company ?

In Croatia, you can only run a chartering business when the boat is registered over there, and when you have a business or legal identity in the country.
Moreover detax diesel is not allowed for yachts without exception, at least thats what I have been told,
on top of that, in marina's boats for charter pay more for their yearly mooring fees.
So as far as I know until now, coding the boat for occasional charter doesn't make sense in Croatia.

 

[jfm]

Question:
do you need to setup a chartering company in France or can you run the Business from a foreign company (ex UK or Belgium) ?
also for the crew, and all social security involved;
the work is done in France, do you need to employ staff in a french company, or can you send over crew employed in a foreign company ?

In Croatia, you can only run a chartering business when the boat is registered over there, and when you have a business or legal identity in the country.
Moreover detax diesel is not allowed for yachts without exception, at least thats what I have been told,
on top of that, in marina's boats for charter pay more for their yearly mooring fees.
So as far as I know until now, coding the boat for occasional charter doesn't make sense in Croatia.

You do not have to have a French company. I use a UK company to own the boat; much simpler to administer. You could use a Belg co too

You can have the boat registered to the company but use an English law bare trust so beneficial ownership of the boat is with you and the company is a mere nominee. Then the company has no tax retruns and no trnasactions. That might be an advantage, depending on your exact detail. The French don't recognise the trust, which is helpful

So long as the numbers are small many crew are just paid cash/gross with no NI. Many are non res as they do carib in winter. This is not correct but the amount of €€€ risk you are taking is tiny and the authorities seem not to care

You can definitely employ crew in a non french company. Freedom of establishment; one of the 4 freedoms in the treaty of Rome!

I dont know about Croatia but it sounds too complex for anything other than private cruising!

 

[BartW]

In France a commercial boat that is crewed gets big tax advantages. Virtually every boat registered as commercial takes those advantages, and the douanes who inspect frequently will always (quite reasonably) assume any commercial boat they come across is taking those advantages. One of the requirements for the tax benefit is the boat is crewed. So if a boat is found with commercial papers and NOT crewed (eg on bareboat charter) the douanes get quite antsy and assume you are taking the tax breaks but not following the "crewed" rules. Even if you're not taking the tax breaks, proving you're not will spoil your day.

how do you proove to the douanes that your boat is crewed?
assume that I have a crew member on board, employed by the company that owns the boat, is that ok ?
Or even myself as a skipper, and employee or owner from that company ?
what papers do you show ?

 

[jfm]

how do you proove to the douanes that your boat is crewed?
assume that I have a crew member on board, employed by the company that owns the boat, is that ok ?
Or even myself as a skipper, and employee or owner from that company ?
what papers do you show ?

You just (i) show them the crew list which they see as a VERY important document (made in MS Word, with a big red round rubber stamp from www.rubberstampz.co.uk) (ii) wear crew uniform Polo shirts embroidered w yacht name (iii) have a YM commercial for the skipper which they sometimes but not always ask for

This might change. French have just announced changes to this law. Detials awaited, and I dont expect a very big change especially on larger 20m+ boats

 

[BartW]

You just (i) show them the crew list which they see as a VERY important document (made in MS Word, with a big red round rubber stamp from www.rubberstampz.co.uk) (ii) wear crew uniform Polo shirts embroidered w yacht name (iii) have a YM commercial for the skipper which they sometimes but not always ask for

Alright, I get it !
this procedure would certainly work in Croatia I think
for them the crew list also is a very important document, (obligatory) and you need a stamp on it from the harbour where you enter the country or where your guests embark.
thanks for the advice !

 

[jfm]

Alright, I get it !

Exactly. It's a game. The French just want the yacht business in their country because of the wider economic benefits. Very sensible folks. So if you play the game nicely, they are nice to you :-D

 

[Hurricane]

Exactly. It's a game. The French just want the yacht business in their country because of the wider economic benefits. Very sensible folks. So if you play the game nicely, they are nice to you :-D

Shame that the Spanish dont think that way.
"Cut noses of to spite faces" comes to mind.

There was a spark of news a few months ago - a move towards removing the mat tax - but everything takes time in Spain.

 

[BartW]

You just (i) show them the crew list which they see as a VERY important document (made in MS Word, with a big red round rubber stamp from www.rubberstampz.co.uk) (ii) wear crew uniform Polo shirts embroidered w yacht name (iii) have a YM commercial for the skipper which they sometimes but not always ask for

This might change. French have just announced changes to this law. Detials awaited, and I dont expect a very big change especially on larger 20m+ boats

did you read that arcticle in MBY ?
apparently France is forced by the european parlement
"forbidding the use of detax Diesel in crewed charter boats "
The French are trying to "soften" the rules and find a way around, but it seems that soon they are forced to forbid it completely ?

In UK and Belgium, some use red diesel, "in separate tanks" for heating,
is this also practice in France or Spain or anywhere else ?
they probably don't need heating, but airco then ?

I forgot to asc the daytrip diving boats I saw in Cassis marina yesterday, prepairing for the new season, what diesel they use, (big old wooden displacement trawlers)

 

[jfm]

did you read that arcticle in MBY ?
apparently France is forced by the european parlement
"forbidding the use of detax Diesel in crewed charter boats "
The French are trying to "soften" the rules and find a way around, but it seems that soon they are forced to forbid it completely ?

In UK and Belgium, some use red diesel, "in separate tanks" for heating,
is this also practice in France or Spain or anywhere else ?
they probably don't need heating, but airco then ?

I forgot to asc the daytrip diving boats I saw in Cassis marina yesterday, prepairing for the new season, what diesel they use, (big old wooden displacement trawlers)

Er, i wrote the article

Yes indeed the EU commission has forced France to change, and so France has enacted an new law saying detax fuel is only for navigation "on the high seas". But the French are great game players here, and they will after a while bring out guidance on what "high seas" means, and for big boats 20m+ you can be sure they will deem such boats to be on the high seas 90% of the time or something like that, and then they will collect fuel tax the same way as UK do (only it will be 90-10 not 40-60) becuase France does not want all the big yachts to have to register for VAT. Or some similar clever fix. Just watch over the next 12m to see what happens: the French are total opposite of Spain here and they want the business that big yachts bring. They will get around the EU thing with some skill

 

[benjenbav]

Er, i wrote the article

Yes indeed the EU commission has forced France to change, and so France has enacted an new law saying detax fuel is only for navigation "on the high seas". But the French are great game players here, and they will after a while bring out guidance on what "high seas" means, and for big boats 20m+ you can be sure they will deem such boats to be on the high seas 90% of the time or something like that, and then they will collect fuel tax the same way as UK do (only it will be 90-10 not 40-60) becuase France does not want all the big yachts to have to register for VAT. Or some similar clever fix. Just watch over the next 12m to see what happens: the French are total opposite of Spain here and they want the business that big yachts bring. They will get around the EU thing with some skill

"Les oceans hauts" will probably include any ports with direct access thereto without requiring to reach the high seas by way of a river system. Like, for example, St Trop, Cannes, Antibes... etc

 

[westernman]

Yes, I always have to show my papers when visiting another port, but usually they charge for the full size of the berth you are using, even if you are too short for it. So your deal in Cassis seems nice. (This is a totally different point to the 10% matter)

I have never had this. They have always used the LOA printed on the registration. Which is just as well as I have another 18ft of bowsprit sticking out.

I also only pay for LOA for the yearly contract in my home port.

 

[jfm]

"Les oceans hauts" will probably include any ports with direct access thereto without requiring to reach the high seas by way of a river system. Like, for example, St Trop, Cannes, Antibes... etc

You got the idea BJB