Questions about this type of Enterprise

[wombat88]

Worth noting that bye laws theoretically prevent camping on certain beaches. Obviously sleeping afloat is no problem and then there is a grey area...

I have pushed Liz's Cormorant up the dinghy park, I assume it is the same Liz and Cormorant. Needed a quiet moment afterwards.

 

[Greenheart]

I also note Dan that you are not really sailing that Osprey if you only have the main & no jib.

Don't forget I haven't used the spinnaker yet, either! Plenty more about that, next year... :sleeping:

Actually she sails upwind very nicely under main alone if I can keep her within 25° of heel, and she's very happy downwind, notwithstanding rolling, in much more wind than that. But it seems to me that as the wind rises, the leech is the last part of the sail to spill wind, so the drive comes from very far aft and without the balance of the genoa, the boat stubbornly refuses to tack.

That only happened once (and was horrible) and might have been alleviated by partly raising the centreboard, which would also have reduced heeling...but fearing a capsize, I decided I wanted the full depth of the board to stand on. Had I set reefed mainsail and part-rolled genoa, I might have continued on my cruise, rather than running scared (although that downwind flit was quite a thrill ).

In the right range of wind speed - narrow though that is - I can beat singlehanded with full main and genoa whilst hiking, and the balance and pointing and the benefit of 'slot effect' all feel glorious.

Why are you not on the wire?

Only because the early days of teaching oneself to trapeze, whilst singlehanding a large dinghy that was designed to carry at least two crew, of whom the helmsman was intended not to trapeze, calls for light steady winds which I rarely encounter. In fact not once, this year...there were such days of course, but not when I was free. I had a go in October 2017, briefly, and felt encouraged...

...but I also note the description by an Osprey sailor in a Yachts and Yachting forum post..."I helmed it obviously, as being a normal sized human means I'm way, way too small to crew one." Which strongly suggests to me that even having mastered trapezing, as a lightweight singlehander applying righting force, my days in the Osprey will necessarily always be restricted to below 15 knots.

But that would still feel a great achievement compared with my practice hitherto, of not launching in more than 10 knots.

I was never any good at beating in a breeze, I couldn't manage my Topper 35 years ago in a force 2.5. Possibly I didn't understand the sail-trim techniques (nor do I, still) but I don't believe downsizing to a Byte or a Laser Radial or other lightweight singlehander will immediately solve that problem. More significantly, I'd much rather sail the Osprey occasionally, than any lesser boat, more often.

 

[Tink]

Nothing daunting about a K1. The one at our club was sailed by a girl & she pulled it up the beach - It weighs 125 KG which is lighter than your Osprey by far & less than some of the boats suggested here.
I also note Dan that you are not really sailing that Osprey if you only have the main & no jib. Why are you not on the wire?
Neither is it much use if you can only use it in light airs. Drive all the way to the water & the wind pipes up & apart from banter with club mates your time has been wasted. ( Unless you get a sailboard!!)
The girl in question sailed her K1 in quite windy conditions
But i take your point about price & £5K for a second hand one is well over the top.

I would imagine that being a keel boat the K1 isn’t kept at the back of the dinghy park and has the benefit of a concrete slip to the water. This is very very different to recovery at low tide, swishy stuff at the water, 200 meters of sand getting very soft above the high tide line then up a poorly maintained public slip.

Not to mention you can’t beach a K1 and then not the craft for exploring shallow waters. A centre board is a must

 

[Tink]

Worth noting that bye laws theoretically prevent camping on certain beaches. Obviously sleeping afloat is no problem and then there is a grey area...

I have pushed Liz's Cormorant up the dinghy park, I assume it is the same Liz and Cormorant. Needed a quiet moment afterwards.

The possibility of camping ashore is why a lighter craft appeals, I think the number of nights when I would camp onboard would be few, it just a must have but occasionally.

The camping is a grey area as you say, I was reading something that said if you set up camp after dark and take it down at dawn you will rarely have trouble, being quiet and good housekeeping also recommended. I was woken by the Duke of Westminster’s game keeper (up in Cheshire) and he was fine about our wild camping.

 

[Greenheart]

The possibility of camping ashore is why a lighter craft appeals...I was reading that if you set up camp after dark and take it down at dawn you will rarely have trouble, being quiet and good housekeeping also recommended. I was woken by the Duke of Westminster’s game keeper (up in Cheshire) and he was fine about our wild camping.

What a lovely idea, that landowners (and their shotgun-toting representatives) are so broadminded about nocturnal tenting.

However, despite the Osprey feeling decidedly less stable than her sister the Wayfarer, the main thrill I've always imagined about dinghy cruising is sleeping on board and feeling independent of the shore, in sheltered spots somewhere like Chichester or Poole.

While the boat was in the shed, winter 2015/16 I even worked hard on making a flat marine ply floor, supported by pine planks, carefully planed and shaped to match the 3D curves of the cockpit floor...and although it was heavy, it wasn't looking too sloppy...

...then somehow the new season started and I was more interested in exciting day-sailing than sleeping aboard, so the epoxied wood has stood quietly in the garage for three summers.

Below is my pre-painted cockpit without the ply floor, to show the curves which I felt wouldn't allow a good night's rest. Lengthwise it's over 8ft, and there'd be enough breadth either side of the centreboard case to sleep, if one hasn't over-filled on starchy foods.

Seeing that wood-floor photo again has got me thinking about cruising next summer.

My plan was that the inflatable boat-roller could, with another the same (because one alone isn't much use as a roller) be webbing-strapped securely at the widest point either side of the Osprey's waterline, to decrease her inclination to roll at anchor.

Some may say I should make them a permanent fixture, to keep heeling under control while sailing.

I still think side-floats are a sound idea for improving stability when sleeping afloat, and a better use for the lightweight rollers than the one they were intended to perform. I'm not sure how much they'd increase wave/ripple-noise though.

 

[Greenheart]

We were discussing Roger Barnes's mode of dinghy cruising, and I agree he does it in style, even if that mightn't be my choice.

I found myself reading his description of a trip down the Loire, and up to Morbihan.

I began, expecting to be bored by what I thought might be an inland, tow-path story. I hadn't taken into account the scale of the mighty Loire; but when Barnes reaches the mouth of the river and continues into the Atlantic, heading north-west, there were several moments in his description of days and nights on board, when I realised, I will never be a dinghy-cruiser like that fellow!

Having seen his peaceful, rational, thoroughly watchable videos, he seems to me intelligent, practical and likeable, but in the Loire story, the way he kept putting himself in situations that make me shudder to imagine, suggests he may be slightly nuts, too!

It's not a long read, and you won't be sorry... http://www.classicboat.co.uk/articles/dinghy-down-the-loire/

 

[Tink]

We were discussing Roger Barnes's mode of dinghy cruising, and I agree he does it in style, even if that mightn't be my choice.

I found myself reading his description of a trip down the Loire, and up to Morbihan.

I began, expecting to be bored by what I thought might be an inland, tow-path story. I hadn't taken into account the scale of the mighty Loire; but when Barnes reaches the mouth of the river and continues into the Atlantic, heading north-west, there were several moments in his description of days and nights on board, when I realised, I will never be a dinghy-cruiser like that fellow!

Having seen his peaceful, rational, thoroughly watchable videos, he seems to me intelligent, practical and likeable, but in the Loire story, the way he kept putting himself in situations that make me shudder to imagine, suggests he may be slightly nuts, too!

It's not a long read, and you won't be sorry... http://www.classicboat.co.uk/articles/dinghy-down-the-loire/

Nice read thanks, all a bit seat of the pants stuff for me. Somewhere there is a video of a Gabare joining the Loire from tributary in ferocious current, can’t find it just now.

I too will never be that sort of Dinghy Cruiser.

I live North of the Tees and the sailing club is south of the Tees up on the North York Moors. Driving home and over Tees after a day of light wind drifting at the club I thought ‘on days like this I should go end explore the Tees’

I bought some plans off Selway Fisher for a Solway Dory with the idea of exploring the Tees, I got distracted by my Proa designs and lost a few years doing that. About four years ago I had the thought of exploring the Tees again and designed and built a 12’ x 30” open canoe. I have now explored all the non tidal or white water Tees and it has been a very enjoyable experience. Even did a bit of sailing in the canoe. During this time I have been becoming more disillusioned by the whole dinghy racing game and using our move south as a catalyst I want to give cruising a go.

The thing that appeals is exploring different places and planning trips etc, there are so many areas down there I think I can have a lot of fun without going too far out to sea. Obviously there is the DCA Solent group and typically they are using Mirror, Gulls, Herons, Cormorant (Liz from the posts above) and an Enterprise. They don’t seam to use Wayferers and Drascombes that are favoured in other places. That then brings us back to the OP and asking about that particular model of Enterprise which was all I was really interested in. The Thread has gone of to a more general discussion of cruising and is all the better for it. Hopefully in the New Year I will go and meet the Solent DCA but a lot of other balls in the air at the moment.

It is nice to have a go to plan, a positive vision of where our move will ultimately take me.

 

[Daydream believer]

I would imagine that being a keel boat the K1 isn’t kept at the back of the dinghy park and has the benefit of a concrete slip to the water. This is very very different to recovery at low tide, swishy stuff at the water, 200 meters of sand getting very soft above the high tide line then up a poorly maintained public slip.

I think that you have never been to Stone sailing club at low water. when the low tide fits with my visit to the club I will take a picture & post it. Might educate your mind on what can easily be done :ambivalence:
If the other K1 owner has not taken their boat home for the winter I will show a picture of where they store that as well.
The half a dozen Wayfarers are a little closer to the water- well they have to be as they are heavier!!!!

But it was only an "off topic" suggestion for Dan- not the intention to start an argument. Dan has already stated that in his opinion it would not suit, least of all because of cost. So that settles it. No point in discussing it with him further

By the way. Nice job with the ply floor Dan. Think it needs some non slip though!
Or is someone going to disagree with that as well?:ambivalence:

 

[Seajet]

I completely agree with Tinks' comment about being disillusioned with dinghy racing and fancying dinghy cruising more.

I have always had fast racing dinghies - my favourite by far was the Osprey, the only cruising I did in her was Chichester - Cowes overnight.

I never did take to racing around in circles among shouty people, always liked going fast in the direction I wanted - and in the old days a lot of clubs insisted on racing only, dictating which classes members must have.

Those days are thankfully gone, clubs have to be a lot more flexible now to survive.

My club has never been a snobby race only place, but in recent years has adopted much more dinghy cruising including a dinghy cruise in company around Chichester Harbour and camping overnight; the safety boat carries the tents and kit - this and casual ' fun on the water ' events are very popular.

The Junior section is hugely successful with lots of training available and two fleets of suitable boats the Juniors can sign out and borrow, with safety cover.

One thing though; at the end of the 2017 season we in my cruiser helped out an elderly chap cruising a Gull, it was very windy and quite cold, fatigue got him so we gave a hand; that Gull ( dunno whch mark ) was not self draining, not all that much buoyancy and water was flooding through the centreboard case, a feature I wasn't too impressed by...

 

[wombat88]

Dun racin', nowadays not even in Tideways.

Now, time to get serious and propose a suitable cruising dinghy that is both individualistic and practical...up to a point.

See here, we are talking about a seriously blank canvas but lots of scope for 'good ideas'.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/classic-...081175?hash=item1cc2f77397:g:VgwAAOSwK1RcCYFN

 

[Greenheart]

That's one for the woodworking hobbyist, isn't it Wombat?

I too will never be that sort of Dinghy Cruiser.

I credit Roger Barnes for his confidence, but long, profitless, windless stints under oars against the tide, in pitch darkness, in the mouth of one of Europe's biggest rivers, with shipping coming and going and the roar of swells breaking on unseen cliffs to leeward, and deadly off-lying shoals...then a foggy day of dreadful seasickness in a strong wind which he must ride out because he can't turn back...

...that could restrict me to pond-sailing if I thought hard about it. I believe he could foresee it, but continued regardless! :hopeless:

Also, that trip was 2013, and his first reported capsize was later. He must be fairly fearless, but knowing as he does now, how exhausting it must be to capsize, then crouch in his swamped, wallowing boat even in fine weather with help on hand, I bet he sometimes recalls the grey day surging along, alone, miles offshore in the endless Atlantic swell, and thinks, "I won't do that again".

By the way. Nice job with the ply floor Dan.

Thanks, I'm sure you're right about the lack of grip, I could mix the non-slip pellets with varnish I suppose.

It occurred to me after putting in days of work shaping, sanding and epoxying the wood, that about six "pool noodles" would level the curvature of the Osprey's floor, making a reasonable place to sleep and a softer surface than wood. Practical, but less pretty.

Your K-boat suggestions were interesting, I wish there were more such designs. I was surprised by the bafflement expressed by Yachts and Yachting forumites, on the subject of why anybody would want a dinghy-sized boat that is ballasted. I guess they see it only from a racing perspective, in which planing performance is paramount and occasional swimming is a reasonable price to pay.

Maybe the lifting keel is entirely removable from the hull, so boat and ballast could be taken up a slipway separately? Although it may not be an issue for the K1 at 125kg overall, and the K6's keel is that weight on its own, so not manageable anyway.

But one glance at that photo shows the racing intention behind the K1 - she's very lean and slick, with minimal recesses and no shelter. So besides the high price, I doubt she'd make a good cruiser...but I'd like to try one on a F4 day when I can't sail the Osprey.

I never did take to racing around in circles among shouty people, always liked going fast in the direction I wanted.

Yes...in fact if my club organised a race from our base to the Pilot Boat Inn at Bembridge, I'd sign on in a hurry. Not because I've any interest in the race, but because company's welcome on a long open-water trip. Although, even the race itself might be of interest if it wasn't restricted to tedious tactical triangles within a mile of our slipway!

 

[Tink]

I think that you have never been to Stone sailing club at low water. when the low tide fits with my visit to the club I will take a picture & post it. Might educate your mind on what can easily be done :ambivalence:
If the other K1 owner has not taken their boat home for the winter I will show a picture of where they store that as well.
The half a dozen Wayfarers are a little closer to the water- well they have to be as they are heavier!!!!

But it was only an "off topic" suggestion for Dan- not the intention to start an argument. Dan has already stated that in his opinion it would not suit, least of all because of cost. So that settles it. No point in discussing it with him further

By the way. Nice job with the ply floor Dan. Think it needs some non slip though!
Or is someone going to disagree with that as well?:ambivalence:

I have owned an RS Vision at about 125kg and it was a back breaker. I fitted wide beach wheels and it helped a bit.

The other issue with the K1 is the keel is not going to work exploring shallow waters and you certainly wouldn’t want to beach i.e. with out a trailer, to camp or lunch which is common with dinghy cruising.

 

[Tink]

I completely agree with Tinks' comment about being disillusioned with dinghy racing and fancying dinghy cruising more.

I have always had fast racing dinghies - my favourite by far was the Osprey, the only cruising I did in her was Chichester - Cowes overnight.

I never did take to racing around in circles among shouty people, always liked going fast in the direction I wanted - and in the old days a lot of clubs insisted on racing only, dictating which classes members must have.

Those days are thankfully gone, clubs have to be a lot more flexible now to survive.

My club has never been a snobby race only place, but in recent years has adopted much more dinghy cruising including a dinghy cruise in company around Chichester Harbour and camping overnight; the safety boat carries the tents and kit - this and casual ' fun on the water ' events are very popular.

The Junior section is hugely successful with lots of training available and two fleets of suitable boats the Juniors can sign out and borrow, with safety cover.

One thing though; at the end of the 2017 season we in my cruiser helped out an elderly chap cruising a Gull, it was very windy and quite cold, fatigue got him so we gave a hand; that Gull ( dunno whch mark ) was not self draining, not all that much buoyancy and water was flooding through the centreboard case, a feature I wasn't too impressed by...

I like the sound of your club a lot, very alighted.

I think I was reading about the guy in the Gull yesterday in a DCA bulletin (was it October 21st). The Gull at question was a MK2, they have buoyancy bags and possibly not enough floatation. I think it is less of an issue with modern Gulls. The chap had practiced righting the Gull in calmer conditions but on that particular day it was too much for him and he was in bulkier winter clothing rather than the lighter clothes he had practiced in.

 

[Tink]

Dun racin', nowadays not even in Tideways.

Now, time to get serious and propose a suitable cruising dinghy that is both individualistic and practical...up to a point.

See here, we are talking about a seriously blank canvas but lots of scope for 'good ideas'.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/classic-...081175?hash=item1cc2f77397:g:VgwAAOSwK1RcCYFN

That is seriously opportunity, timing is wrong, the downside our moving South is I will be without a boat shed (garage) for the next year

 

[Tink]

That's one for the woodworking hobbyist, isn't it Wombat?



I credit Roger Barnes for his confidence, but long, profitless, windless stints under oars against the tide, in pitch darkness, in the mouth of one of Europe's biggest rivers, with shipping coming and going and the roar of swells breaking on unseen cliffs to leeward, and deadly off-lying shoals...then a foggy day of dreadful seasickness in a strong wind which he must ride out because he can't turn back...

...that could restrict me to pond-sailing if I thought hard about it. I believe he could foresee it, but continued regardless! :hopeless:

Also, that trip was 2013, and his first reported capsize was later. He must be fairly fearless, but knowing as he does now, how exhausting it must be to capsize, then crouch in his swamped, wallowing boat even in fine weather with help on hand, I bet he sometimes recalls the grey day surging along, alone, miles offshore in the endless Atlantic swell, and thinks, "I won't do that again".

Thanks, I'm sure you're right about the lack of grip, I could mix the non-slip pellets with varnish I suppose.

It occurred to me after putting in days of work shaping, sanding and epoxying the wood, that about six "pool noodles" would level the curvature of the Osprey's floor, making a reasonable place to sleep and a softer surface than wood. Practical, but less pretty.

Your K-boat suggestions were interesting, I wish there were more such designs. I was surprised by the bafflement expressed by Yachts and Yachting forumites, on the subject of why anybody would want a dinghy-sized boat that is ballasted. I guess they see it only from a racing perspective, in which planing performance is paramount and occasional swimming is a reasonable price to pay.

Maybe the lifting keel is entirely removable from the hull, so boat and ballast could be taken up a slipway separately? Although it may not be an issue for the K1 at 125kg overall, and the K6's keel is that weight on its own, so not manageable anyway.

But one glance at that photo shows the racing intention behind the K1 - she's very lean and slick, with minimal recesses and no shelter. So besides the high price, I doubt she'd make a good cruiser...but I'd like to try one on a F4 day when I can't sail the Osprey.



Yes...in fact if my club organised a race from our base to the Pilot Boat Inn at Bembridge, I'd sign on in a hurry. Not because I've any interest in the race, but because company's welcome on a long open-water trip. Although, even the race itself might be of interest if it wasn't restricted to tedious tactical triangles within a mile of our slipway!

Hi Dan, can I ask how you do the little bits of a quote, I can only do a whole post, I have tried all sorts of things.

 

[Greenheart]

Highly technical stuff, Tink...I use the delete key.

I respond to whoever I want to, incorporating their quote, but I delete the segments of their quote that I didn't want to include, so I keep to the areas of specific relevance...

...then, if I want to respond to another reply without starting another new post, I copy my complete reply, including that first quote...

...then I 'cancel' that response, and move on to the next reply I want to respond to, and when it opens, I paste my earlier copied response into it...then respond to the new quote...and so on and so on. You can chop-up people's quoted posts, just as easily as you can change your own. :encouragement:

 

[Tink]

Highly technical stuff, Tink...I use the delete key.

I respond to whoever I want to, incorporating their quote, but I delete the segments of their quote that I didn't want to include, so I keep to the areas of specific relevance...

I always end up holding onto the delete key too long and delete what I want

 

[Greenheart]

Ah.

Well you could highlight exactly the bits you don't want, as if you were going to copy them, and delete instead.

If you do wipe out what you wanted to keep, just hit cancel below the window, and then "reply with quote" again.

Irritation will teach you, eventually. :biggrin-new:

 

[Seajet]

I think I was reading about the guy in the Gull yesterday in a DCA bulletin (was it October 21st). The Gull at question was a MK2, they have buoyancy bags and possibly not enough floatation. I think it is less of an issue with modern Gulls. The chap had practiced righting the Gull in calmer conditions but on that particular day it was too much for him and he was in bulkier winter clothing rather than the lighter clothes he had practiced in.

Hi Tink,

we didn't get the chap or boats' name - would be interested to see if it is the same chap, if you think it is ( incident in Sweare Deep, he was going back to Cobnor ) please PM and we'll swap e-mails.

My crew that day - a regular - is an inshore and offshore lifeboat crew, which can come in handy !

 

[Tink]

I took my Streaker and my daughters old Optimist down south this weekend so our move has started.

As part of this I was sleeping on the floor of our new house in an old mummy style sleeping bag. I replaced this bag a few years ago with rectangular one, parallel sides 2’6” wide. At about 2.00 in the morning I woke and remembered why I replaced the mummy on. It sounds weird, wimpy and a bit odd but my legs ached agonising and I was VERY claustrophobic also to the point of a panic attack. The relevance to the thread is I have kidding myself that I could sleep on the sole of cockpit between side tanks, board case and thwart. I know need to be honest with myself and admit this is just to feasible, I need a 2’ 6” sleeping platform.