Questions about this type of Enterprise

[Skylark]

Two on Apollo Duck as we speak.
https://sailingdinghies.apolloduck.co.uk/listings.phtml?cid=106&sti=55

I don't quite share your level of enthusiasm. Bit heavy for their size. But they do a job at that sort of price.

I don’t have the breadth of experience as many on here but I had Laser 13 s/n 248 in the 1990s.

Just about launchable single handed but a lot of fun on the water. I had the spinny option, too, significantly increasing the enjoyment.

I sold it to buy a Solo.

 

[Tink]

Hopefully at some point my correct picture will get posted

In the wrong picture there is my RS Vision, it is on a trailer going to Germany. The list weight of the Vision is less than a Laser 13 and the Vision was not a pleasure to move about solo. I have also dragged about a Wanderer, the same weight as L13 and again a chore. Yes it is possible to move these beasts about solo but will I still be able to do it when I am 60 or while I have wreaked my back by then. Don’t disagree the L13 is a lot of boat for very little cash but there has to be a reason of their cheapness vs Gulls and Wanderers.

With regard over loading the Gull with camping gear. Forty years ago I could load up a back pack and hike for four days, I think I would carry about 20kg. Camping gear has come a long way since then and obviously I need ground tackle etc but I doubt I will be adding 60kg so less than the crew the Gull was designed to take, I am sailing solo.

That is where the questions about Enterprises came from only 3kg heavier than the Gull but 45kg lighter than the L13 and Wanderer. The Enterprise, even with reduced rig, would be quicker than the Gull and give much more room.

I think I am convincing myself here, the question is wood or GRP, I think more modern foam sandwich ones won’t be robust enough.

It is all my fault I have confused everyone with the wrong picture posting and this has been compounded by my newbie posts needing approval

 

[Tink]

Still haven’t seen any of my posts from the last twenty hours but for the sceptics of small boat camping

http://www.hostellerssailingclub.org.uk/index.php/articles/mirror-dinghy-cruising


This guy is far from the only one

And don’t forget:
The Unlikely Voyage of Jack De Crow: A Mirror Odyssey from North Wales to the Black Sea,
by A. J. Mackinnon

 

[Tink]

I am a newbie and by error attached the wrong picture, I have tried to post the correct one but they all appear to have been getting lost.

Hopefully this will post instantly as my last one did. This is the Enterprise I am interested in, stiffness, issues etc etc



Sorry if all by other posts suddenly come through

 

[wombat88]

Do you know the Dinghy Cruising Association?

http://www.dinghycruising.org.uk/

I've seen one of their rallies, their craft come in all shapes, sizes and ages, well worth getting in touch.

I'm sure the grp Ent would be OK if it can be reefed easily. Is it reasonably heavy? You would need to plan the positioning of the drink's cabinet and beer keg with some precision.

Where are your cruising grounds likely to be?

 

[lw395]

Some early GRP enterprises were buit heavy for sailing school use.
A normal racing GRP ent won't have the outboard pad or the rowlocks.
I'd imagine the OP won't worry too much about the odd kg over the racing minimum, but AIUI, some were significantly heavy.

It's not normal to reef Enterprises. They have the option of a 'cruising rig', which some people will tell you is the sailplan originally intended for the boat. Smaller main and jib.
Rarely used for racing, with one exception, the 'Southport 24hr Race'.
So it's sometimes possible to get hold of lightly used, well made windy day sails.
Much better than reefing.

 

[Tink]

Do you know the Dinghy Cruising Association?

http://www.dinghycruising.org.uk/

I've seen one of their rallies, their craft come in all shapes, sizes and ages, well worth getting in touch.

I'm sure the grp Ent would be OK if it can be reefed easily. Is it reasonably heavy? You would need to plan the positioning of the drink's cabinet and beer keg with some precision.

Where are your cruising grounds likely to be?

I have recently joined the DCA and had a good read of many articles in there bulletins including a number about Enterprises, hence my confidence in, with reduced rig, her suitability. Despite having been involved over the years with 4 different sailing clubs none have every had a fleet of Enterprises and I have never known any Enterprise sailors hence my specific questions about the Ent.

I am moving in a few weeks to near Basingstoke and plan to get involved with the Solent group which seam very active and sail smaller dinghies rather that Wayfarers and Drascombes etc.

One of my ideas is to convert a GRP Enterprise to a lug rig for cruising, I have designed, built and sailed a Schooner lug rigged Proa that didn’t have a rudder so left field is my kind of thing.

 

[Sailingsaves]

Wayfarer or wanderer fitted with windlass for dragging ashore? Carry catamaran dinghy wheels too? Enterprise was too tender for my liking.

 

[lw395]

I have recently joined the DCA and had a good read of many articles in there bulletins including a number about Enterprises, hence my confidence in, with reduced rig, her suitability. Despite having been involved over the years with 4 different sailing clubs none have every had a fleet of Enterprises and I have never known any Enterprise sailors hence my specific questions about the Ent.

I am moving in a few weeks to near Basingstoke and plan to get involved with the Solent group which seam very active and sail smaller dinghies rather that Wayfarers and Drascombes etc.

One of my ideas is to convert a GRP Enterprise to a lug rig for cruising, I have designed, built and sailed a Schooner lug rigged Proa that didn’t have a rudder so left field is my kind of thing.

Cruising in company makes a lot of sense.
So having a similar boat to your companions is a good thought.
No harm in yours being a tad quicker though.
One of my other thoughts was a small cat. Maybe Dart 15?
Main thing is tough and not too precious, so you can beach it without worrying about a few scratches.

I don't know that any alternative rig like lug will actually be better for cruisng than the standard rig, with all its controls that allow the racers to do well in a lot of wind.

Do keep us informed, it's great to hear of people getting out there in small boats and going places.

 

[Tink]

Wayfarer or wanderer fitted with windlass for dragging ashore? Carry catamaran dinghy wheels too? Enterprise was too tender for my liking.

I can’t find line plans for the Enterprise to get a good understanding the form stability but looking at the hull I would say initially she would be tender but have good secondary stability. Compared to the Wanderer and GP14 she carries a big sail area but as I have said I would sail with less. I appreciate it is just from one angle and a very over simplistic view but in plan view anyway not miles away from a Wayfarer, the Wayfarer is obviously longer and has finer bows



I am pretty set on the Ent for the reasons in posts above the question is is it old GRP or will by the time I have updated covers, trailer and trolley does a more modern wooden one make more economical sense

 

[Tink]

Cruising in company makes a lot of sense.
So having a similar boat to your companions is a good thought.
No harm in yours being a tad quicker though.
One of my other thoughts was a small cat. Maybe Dart 15?
Main thing is tough and not too precious, so you can beach it without worrying about a few scratches.

I don't know that any alternative rig like lug will actually be better for cruisng than the standard rig, with all its controls that allow the racers to do well in a lot of wind.

Do keep us informed, it's great to hear of people getting out there in small boats and going places.

The Dart 15 is a thought I have had, in addition to the reasons you given it is simple to set a standard tent on the tramp. Would be wet and I don’t like sitting none trapeze cat style but have thought of adding storage ‘benches’ and create seats like Hobie 17 wings.

 

[Tink]

Thanks one and all for the replies along with these and an other forum I have clarified my thoughts.

I don’t think the Enterprise is for me, the GRP ones come with too many issues and due to the age are probably a fair bit over the 91kg. I love the Wooden Ents but I have done wooden boats and want to sail not sand, yes I know modern wooden boats are not too much of a chore but I just want to maximise time on the water, not totally ruled out but exploring other options.

So currently hot are: an original Mk2 Gull, Gull Spirit and possibly a Comet Zero, lighter than the Gull, comes with an asymmetric and nice flat benches to set up camping. They are rare as rocking horse **** I have never seen one and not sure how durable they are.

So thanks again

 

[ShinyShoe]

As mentioned the Heron is a possibility but I think only wood.

Old GRP (heavy but robust, with wooden trim) available a few times a year on eBay for <£1k.
Modern FRP with zero wood (except foils) - but almost unheard of second hand.

An old GRP can probably have floor board mods similar to a wayfarer for sleep.

Wayfarer or wanderer fitted with windlass for dragging ashore? Carry catamaran dinghy wheels too? Enterprise was too tender for my liking.

Big heavy fenders as rollers with dual purpose.

[

 

[dancrane]

Well done for persevering with the forum picture-posting, Tink. After 36 hours using Flickr instead, I recommend it. :encouragement:

I wanted a cruising dinghy as a cheap alternative to a yacht. Unfortunately I was limited to a cheap alternative to a cruising dinghy...

...so I went for a cheap, big old GRP racer whose roomy cockpit and seaworthiness makes it possible to cruise her, though that wasn't the designer's intention. But since he also designed the Wayfarer, Wanderer and Gull, the 17ft Osprey seemed to me a good choice.

Ironically, after six years of loading the dinghy with oars, anchor, reefing gear and lazyjacks, I'm still very keen to acquire a yacht for cruising, and to keep the Osprey for fast singlehanded fun on fine days. She sails beautifully but it's never restful in a breeze, it's a work-out. For relaxing sailing, I want a ballasted boat that doesn't require hauling out, or capsize recovery, or the wearing of a wetsuit.

None of which is particularly helpful to you Tink, unless you are unsure about why you want to dinghy-cruise…

...the Vision was not a pleasure to move about solo. I have also dragged about a Wanderer, the same weight as L13 and again a chore. Yes it is possible to move these beasts about solo but will I still be able to do it when I am 60...

It's a fair question. I've been surprised that people always seem to think big dinghies are immovable on shore, when the actual labour involved isn't prohibitive. Not saying it's easy, it is not; but I'm short and scrawny yet it can be done, even single-handed...

...and to my mind, it's more important that a boat is truly rewarding once afloat, and that her looks make you happy, rather than that her appeal is mainly easy handling ashore. Sorry for all the photos below - I'm new to Flickr and I'm testing it.

The bottom pic shows how high in the water Ian Proctor's big dinghies sit. Granted, the other boat (a Contender) was designed to be sleek and fast, but the Osprey is quicker still, yet her side-decks are about five inches higher, allowing a dryer ride, nicer for cruising.

 

[wombat88]

Lazyjacks eh? The sign of a true dinghy cruiser...

 

[Tink]

Thanks Dancrane, some very interesting and valid points and the photos are great, the Osprey as a very pretty boat with sea keeping to match.

I was moving my Vision around the dinghy park which is very different to going to a slip and recovering to take the boat home after a cruise. You can use the car, portable winches etc, a number of techniques presented in Margaret Dye’s book. As you imply, proportional to sailing it the shore bit is insignificant. A bigger boat will be more comfortable, especially to camp on which leads to less fatigue and that is ultimately big contribution to safety.

Other than the moving about on shore I worry about righting a bigger boat in the sort of weather where I am likely to capsize. I am sure I could right when testing on a calm summer day but in the notorious Solent chop, which I am yet to experience, it would be very different. Yes there are mast floats but I have when using one had a boat blow away from me.

So how did you feel / deal with the threat of capsizes on such a big boat.

 

[wombat88]

From experience bigger (14ft and up) dinghies with no built in buoyancy and bags only are not easy to right and leave you with a huge amount of water to shift when you least want it. One hell of a job single handed.

Newer designs/builds seem to reduce this considerably allowing you to concentrate on getting going again.

I'd suggest that righting a larger dinghy with lots of stuff in it is at the limit of what one person can do.

The Osprey is a powerful boat, great fun I should think but hardly relaxing. Just think, will your legs still work after sitting in a dinghy for six hours?

 

[dancrane]

The Osprey is easier to sail than a smaller boat for long periods in light winds because of the stability of a large hull, and the deep cockpit that allows the same sort of sitting position we'd choose ashore. Flat little boats tend to be much less comfortable and less stable...when an oil-barge passed my mate (in his tiny Europe dinghy) and I in the Osprey, it kicked up a smooth metre-high wake...

...and with my unprotected phone I filmed him being tossed uncontrollably for thirty seconds, while the Osprey sat solid as a rock...

Funny, we started this thread giving Tink advice as if he didn't know much, whereas I suspect he knows a lot more than me.

Some rambling Sunday-lunchtime thoughts...

Two points here, that he may have given ample thought already. Personally, I launch and land at a very broad slipway, where there is room not to need to pull my boat up a one-in-six incline...I can pull her diagonally, 'tacking' to increase the distance and reduce the steepness. I made a nice five-part tackle for hauling boat and trolley up to a fixed point if necessary, but I've not needed it yet.

If I had to haul the 150kg+ Osprey (and 20kg trolley) straight up a steep narrow slipway, I too might be looking at alternatives.

The other question, on recovery from capsize and whether to put a float at the masthead, was quite well covered here in August:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...or-inverted-sailing-dinghy&highlight=righting

...where LW395 and I disagreed about whether or not it is better to turn turtle, or to have the boat sit on her side and drift. No reflection on him - as a rule I gladly accept his guidance, and in refitting and sailing my boat I've gained much from his advice here.

But singlehanding the Osprey is inherently so challenging that I strive never to be sailing in winds when she might drift capsized, faster than I can swim. She doesn't come up quickly from a 90° knockdown, and I think an inversion would end my days sailing her.

I reckon unsupported dinghy-cruising is such an uncommon approach to sailing that nobody has perfected it yet. I've lately watched most of Roger Barnes's videos, and it's conspicuous that while he has carefully planned what will suit his practicalities and preferences, he has several times been caught out by conditions and found himself in unenviable, even dangerous situations...

...I credit him for his honest descriptions, but let's not assume that because his sailing is high-profile, he has all the answers. He doesn't make such a claim himself. I think it's reasonable for me to sail a boat in which, during severe weather, I'd probably require assistance...as long as I can live with the enormous limitation of ensuring that I never go out if even a force 4 is likely.

That's the reason why I still mainly want a ballasted boat...then, I'd be able to go sailing in 15 knots of wind. Rotten photo, sorry.

Regarding Roger's videos, I'm sure a lot of slow, wet, dispiriting upwind sequences get edited out...or, he just doesn't film them. Time is the big issue...if we can wait for a following wind, all our sailing will be easy and pleasurable, regardless of type of boat.

On that basis, something small like a modified Mirror or a Gull is the smart solo dinghy-cruising choice because it doesn't daunt the singlehander, ashore or at sea...and if we really are cruising and relaxing, the low performance of such designs won't matter.

 

[Tink]

From experience bigger (14ft and up) dinghies with no built in buoyancy and bags only are not easy to right and leave you with a huge amount of water to shift when you least want it. One hell of a job single handed.

Newer designs/builds seem to reduce this considerably allowing you to concentrate on getting going again.

I'd suggest that righting a larger dinghy with lots of stuff in it is at the limit of what one person can do.

The Osprey is a powerful boat, great fun I should think but hardly relaxing. Just think, will your legs still work after sitting in a dinghy for six hours?

I think that overcoming a capsize is more than one activity,
Righting from Turtled,
Righting from a ninety degree angle, I sure that has a more seaman like term
Righting when mast to windward and resulting immediate capsize again, I don’t think I can do a ‘San Francisco roll’ anymore
Getting back in the boat
Recovery and removal of water

I do feel the larger the boat the more difficult many of the actives are but with design they can be made easier. If I wanted to build another boat I would happily build bigger and incorporate tiny cockpit to reduce bailing, perhaps water ballast, great handles.

Because boats are designed for mass appeal many of the features that would make solo cruising feasible are just not included because the want to say it can take four people.

A bigger boat could be a donor hull and modified which was I suppose where the interest in the Enterprise came from, cheap readily available and relatively light but I am not convinced that’s is what I want to do either.

I the moment I rather compromise and get as close to idea with what is out there.

 

[Tink]

The Osprey is easier to sail than a smaller boat for long periods in light winds because of the stability of a large hull, and the deep cockpit that allows the same sort of sitting position we'd choose ashore. Flat little boats tend to be much less comfortable and less stable...when an oil-barge passed my mate (in his tiny Europe dinghy) and I in the Osprey, it kicked up a smooth metre-high wake...

...and with my unprotected phone I filmed him being tossed uncontrollably for thirty seconds, while the Osprey sat solid as a rock...

Funny, we started this thread giving Tink advice as if he didn't know much, whereas I suspect he knows a lot more than me.

Some rambling Sunday-lunchtime thoughts...

Two points here, that he may have given ample thought already. Personally, I launch and land at a very broad slipway, where there is room not to need to pull my boat up a one-in-six incline...I can pull her diagonally, 'tacking' to increase the distance and reduce the steepness. I made a nice five-part tackle for hauling boat and trolley up to a fixed point if necessary, but I've not needed it yet.

If I had to haul the 150kg+ Osprey (and 20kg trolley) straight up a steep narrow slipway, I too might be looking at alternatives.

The other question, on recovery from capsize and whether to put a float at the masthead, was quite well covered here in August:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...or-inverted-sailing-dinghy&highlight=righting

...where LW395 and I disagreed about whether or not it is better to turn turtle, or to have the boat sit on her side and drift. No reflection on him - as a rule I gladly accept his guidance, and in refitting and sailing my boat I've gained much from his advice here.

But singlehanding the Osprey is inherently so challenging that I strive never to be sailing in winds when she might drift capsized, faster than I can swim. She doesn't come up quickly from a 90° knockdown, and I think an inversion would end my days sailing her.

I reckon unsupported dinghy-cruising is such an uncommon approach to sailing that nobody has perfected it yet. I've lately watched most of Roger Barnes's videos, and it's conspicuous that while he has carefully planned what will suit his practicalities and preferences, he has several times been caught out by conditions and found himself in unenviable, even dangerous situations...

...I credit him for his honest descriptions, but let's not assume that because his sailing is high-profile, he has all the answers. He doesn't make such a claim himself. I think it's reasonable for me to sail a boat in which, during severe weather, I'd probably require assistance...as long as I can live with the enormous limitation of ensuring that I never go out if even a force 4 is likely.

That's the reason why I still mainly want a ballasted boat...then, I'd be able to go sailing in 15 knots of wind. Rotten photo, sorry.

Regarding Roger's videos, I'm sure a lot of slow, wet, dispiriting upwind sequences get edited out...or, he just doesn't film them. Time is the big issue...if we can wait for a following wind, all our sailing will be easy and pleasurable, regardless of type of boat.

On that basis, something small like a modified Mirror or a Gull is the smart solo dinghy-cruising choice because it doesn't daunt the singlehander, ashore or at sea...and if we really are cruising and relaxing, the low performance of such designs won't matter.

I don’t doubt that when sailing in suitable conditions the Osprey makes for an excellent cruising boat and is a very comfortable sail. I am honestly not sure where my cruising is going to take me. I like the idea of exploring the interface of land and may stick to rivers and estuaries where a smaller boat will probably fine. Equally I may decide on more adventurous coastal passages where a bigger boat would be better.

What I do know is forecasts are unreliable, or at least in my experience, possibly this is less true in coastal waters. I want to be 100% self reliant and would not be happy limiting myself to a F4 maximum. I will have a good look at the thread you mentioned. I was really only interested in information on that particular Enterprise when I started but throughly enjoying the way the topic has expanded. I probably have about 6 hot and favourite directions to consider.

I too love all of Roger’s videos and for the same reasons you mentioned, mainly the honest nature of them.

Not sure I have answered in a way that gives you post credit but I and assure you I am finding your thoughts very interesting.

Taking my boat down south next weekend and hopefully be joining the Solent DCA soon for a daysail, few medical issues to sort first