Questions about this type of Enterprise

[wombat88]

One of the boats I sail is an 11 Plus (or 11+). It is an absolute delight both to sail and be proud of and was, I understand, called 'the thinking man's Gull' many years ago.

However, with rolled decks and minimal inside space it is really no good for longer cruising.

 

[Greenheart]

...a few old but good articles about Herons. Including one comparing the Mirror, Heron and Gull, that’s my evening sorted.

In hopefully quite a few years from now, I bet I'll sail one of those...I'll take a look at that article myself. :encouragement:

Somehow Dan, I kind of guessed that Ospreys would get a mention in this thread...have you heard of a K1?

I'm astonished at my self-control, reading nearly four pages of replies before joining. There's actually a K6 at my club. It doesn't get much use, presumably because it's 260KG to haul out...like pulling up a Wayfarer whose crew haven't alighted yet...

...and, for singlehanding, even with its ballast centreboard, I'm not certain it's much less daunting than the Osprey!

I've looked at the K1 on Apollo Duck, and it sounds appealing, but the £5,000+ (which they mostly sell for) is yacht money to me...

...I don't want to sell the Osprey, just get better at coping in a breeze. And meanwhile, buy a small cabin centre-boarder so I can go sailing without having to haul my boat out afterwards, or wear special kit, or worry she'll capsize at anchor, and for sleeping aboard while it rains on the leak-proof solid GRP roof, and for night-sailing, and for all the days per year when a dinghy just isn't relaxing.

Regarding inflatable rollers...

I thought compared to buoyancy bags they were ridiculously cheap, now I know why.

I can't imagine anyone would make such a thing for dragging dinghies up beaches.

I can't really imagine why I bought it. It was £20 at Force 4. The manufacturer is called "Trem", I had thought it was Plastimo.

It's exactly the same plastic as the lightweight inflatable I clambered aboard to paddle round Frensham Pond, forty years ago.

 

[Tink]

One of the boats I sail is an 11 Plus (or 11+). It is an absolute delight both to sail and be proud of and was, I understand, called 'the thinking man's Gull' many years ago.

However, with rolled decks and minimal inside space it is really no good for longer cruising.

Thanks, a nice looking boat, I am not sure how comfortable she would be for a days sailing sit up on the side benches. Camping would be difficult. Like most small boat the centre board trunk gets it the way. If I was designing from scratch I would make an off centre trunk or even leeboards. Small boat, light boat with loads of space. Maybe get an old wooden boat and hack it about...... pipe dreams again before my morning coffee has brought me fully awake.

 

[Tink]

In hopefully quite a few years from now, I bet I'll sail one of those...I'll take a look at that article myself. :encouragement:



I'm astonished at my self-control, reading nearly four pages of replies before joining. There's actually a K6 at my club. It doesn't get much use, presumably because it's 260KG to haul out...like pulling up a Wayfarer whose crew haven't alighted yet...

...and, for singlehanding, even with its ballast centreboard, I'm not certain it's much less daunting than the Osprey!

I've looked at the K1 on Apollo Duck, and it sounds appealing, but the £5,000+ (which they mostly sell for) is yacht money to me...

...I don't want to sell the Osprey, just get better at coping in a breeze. And meanwhile, buy a small cabin centre-boarder so I can go sailing without having to haul my boat out afterwards, or wear special kit, or worry she'll capsize at anchor, and for sleeping aboard while it rains on the leak-proof solid GRP roof, and for night-sailing, and for all the days per year when a dinghy just isn't relaxing.

Regarding inflatable rollers...





I can't really imagine why I bought it. It was £20 at Force 4. The manufacturer is called "Trem", I had thought it was Plastimo.

It's exactly the same plastic as the lightweight inflatable I clambered aboard to paddle round Frensham Pond, forty years ago.

These are the DCA BULLETINS I looked at

046A/11
Experimented with sleeping platform on a Gull
125/29

Experiments with a Heron

73/13
Comparison Mirror, Heron, Gull

I won’t go into to much detail as I think that would be unfair on the DCA, I will say that the Heron is still high on the list, but the Gull is a smidge higher. I think a barn find MK2 Gull that was still pretty original would be the dream. Failing that a nice Gull Spirit but if they don’t appear a GRP Heron.

I suspected the K1 would be that price, a joy to sail no doubt but: dragging it up the beach, sleep on it, exploring shallows, not the right boat.

That roller from force 4 was the exact one I was looking at, not what the use to launch boats at the Everglades challenge if you’ve ever seen their videos.

This is more the sort I would want, even talks about the flimsy ones. Not going down the rabbit hole of finding a U.K. supplier when I haven’t yet bought the boat

https://www.duckworksbbs.com/product-p/aere-br.htm

 

[Tink]

Completely off the OP now. These are some of the designs I was working on a few months ago. Attempting to get a 12ft boat out of 3 sheets of plywood. The big area forward of the seats was designed to take canoe barrels for dry storage and I would now want a pivoting board. Hull shape is based on a lot of US designs, flat bottom with multiple chine sides.







Think I’ll work out a cost estimate for a self build, just for the crack

 

[Tink]

I could build this or one of my designs for about £1400 so £2000 with a bit of overspend. I would get exactly what I want

Today 11

 

[wombat88]

Thanks, a nice looking boat, I am not sure how comfortable she would be for a days sailing sit up on the side benches. Camping would be difficult. Like most small boat the centre board trunk gets it the way. If I was designing from scratch I would make an off centre trunk or even leeboards. Small boat, light boat with loads of space. Maybe get an old wooden boat and hack it about...... pipe dreams again before my morning coffee has brought me fully awake.

Yes, 11+ is no good for your plans.

The other dinghy I sail is a Tideway. Enough has been said over the years about Tideways but they are excellent cruising boats well suited to the Solent.

When it comes to stability one owner managed to get his topping lift tangled round the davits of a moored yacht and still remained dry.

 

[Tink]

Yes, 11+ is no good for your plans.

The other dinghy I sail is a Tideway. Enough has been said over the years about Tideways but they are excellent cruising boats well suited to the Solent.

When it comes to stability one owner managed to get his topping lift tangled round the davits of a moored yacht and still remained dry.

Have liked Tideways for a long time, tad heavy but..... very very nice

I must behave I have been tempted by a Cormorant and a Craber 12 both on eBay for less than £2k. I am moving in 14 days and don’t think the boss would sign off the purchase request at the moment.

 

[Greenheart]

Cornish Cormorant, very pretty little traditional boat, in GRP. By chance I saw a couple at Bembridge in 2016 I think, along with a singlehanded newish Wayfarer, plus a Paradox or something very similar, and the red Mirror from Itchenor, Curlew, I think, with a rig modification (from gunter) so she can hoist a gaff topsail!

It made me sorry I'd arrived by car.

The Cormorant caught my eye 30 years ago, but it's impressive (and typical of cruising dinghies) that I can't much more easily afford one built back then, today, than when she was new.

 

[Tink]

The one for sale failed to get a bid of £2K it even comes with boom tent and trailer etc. Went back on the eBay again this morning. Not sure the weight of this model, current one is 125kg (hull) with the wooden mast and kit it doesn’t quite fit into my nimble light sailing. One hell of a boat mind and would give hours of joy.

It looks like the wood work requires a bit of TLC but that said at that price looks very good value

 

[Greenheart]

Indeed, the Cormorant is no lightweight, but seems wonderfully tough and versatile, as well as being a lovely thing to behold.

I'm rather late discovering this excellent description by an owner, but if you don't know it already, click the link and enjoy...
http://www.solentsoundings.org/files/Article_-_Cruising_in_a_Cormorant.pdf

 

[wombat88]

When they say all up I wonder if they include a sensible anchor, line, oars, boom tent, bailing kit etc etc...not to mention the 2.5hp 2 stroke outboard. Then there's the drink's cabinet, beer keg, BBQ...

 

[BlueChip]

I'd agree with that, you'd certainly need a cut down rig if you were to go with an Enterprise, I used to race them way back on my way up through the dinghy ranks, they're a bit of a handful when the wind pipes up

Yes I remember well the death roll when going downwind in a blow

 

[PeteCooper]

Dancrane - the ideal boat for you is a Micro 18
Slightly heavier than a dinghy - but pick a sensible one and they will give you the fun you want when sailing without the fear of getting very wet. Minimum accommodation - but snug. Perfect.

 

[Greenheart]

When they say all up I wonder if they include a sensible anchor...outboard...drinks cabinet, beer keg, BBQ...

Surely they do not. I usually reckon on about 150kg for my boat (which will have been measured at 134kg for racing when new) just on the strength of oars, metal rowlocks (and sockets), various non-standard pieces of woodwork, lockers full of oddments, water-bottles in side-pockets and curious additions (like 120 empty pressurised pop bottles in hull cavities, for unsinkability)...it all adds up.

Yes I remember well the death roll when going downwind in a blow

Considering how I whine about my trouble beating to windward, my experience deep downwind in a breeze is also pretty unsettling. I've grown used to crouching uncomfortably on the centreline while the big rig sways indecisively in the swell. She rips along and I stare at the hypnotic wake telling myself this is what it's all about, but if she gybed unexpectedly, it might be all over. :nightmare:

...the ideal boat for you is a Micro 18 Slightly heavier than a dinghy - but the fun you want when sailing without the fear of getting very wet. Minimum accommodation, but snug. Perfect.

I hear you, Pete, thanks...just what I have in mind. I really like the accommodation that 8ft beam allows, over longer, leaner yachts.

I know the Swift isn't a Micro 18, but it's drawn to the same rules, it's cute and capable, and tidy ones really hold their value.

 

[Tink]

Indeed, the Cormorant is no lightweight, but seems wonderfully tough and versatile, as well as being a lovely thing to behold.

I'm rather late discovering this excellent description by an owner, but if you don't know it already, click the link and enjoy...
http://www.solentsoundings.org/files/Article_-_Cruising_in_a_Cormorant.pdf

Thanks for that Dan, very interesting reading. There is tremendous amount packed into a small package, just shows what you can do if you move the mast and board forward. As Liz says the boat is heavy and the problems at the end of the article gives some concerns.

The article has made me think though, the comfortable life on board that Liz describes would not be possible with with the small craft I have in mind, certainly food for thought. Sort of thinking about the Ent again, with a modified rig, relatively light and spacious.

 

[Tink]

When they say all up I wonder if they include a sensible anchor, line, oars, boom tent, bailing kit etc etc...not to mention the 2.5hp 2 stroke outboard. Then there's the drink's cabinet, beer keg, BBQ...

Ha, no I doubt it

 

[Tink]

probably far away from historical accuracy but helps me think.

Traditional small boats didn’t have foredecks and rigs forward that could easily be accessed.

As dinghies started to be raced freeboards started to be reduced and a foredeck started to be used to stop water coming on board. With the advent of the Bermudan rig the masts moved behind the foredeck, jibs can be furled and the main reefed.

With moving the mast aft and the associated board the cockpit becomes crowded for camping, though fine for racing.

There is the old adage that whenever two boats meet they racing. Modern plastic boats are a big investment for builders and so they play safe, most boats even general purpose, training or cruising don’t stray too far from the racing model. Boat designers only invest time into their boats and so can be a little more radical Bolger or go back to more traditional roots Vivier.

So if our brief is a light but roomy cruising boat what do we need to do?

Move rig and board forward, like Cormorant, roomy but sail handling compromised if you want to keep the foredeck.

Sailing canoes can reef remotely so the rig and board can be moved forward and a foredeck retained. The rigging might be more complex.

Offset the board, some structural considerations required and capsized one way board may be high out of the water. Use righting lines and bilge runners to aid capsize recovery.

Bigger boat at the cost of weight

Design bench and buoyancy placement to accommodate sleeping etc

Catamaran / outrigger with sleeping platform

Use of double bottoms, especially in forward sections, could sleep with legs under foredeck giving more living room. Needs to be strong to step kneel on, crew weight higher for work up front affects stability at the worst time i.e. reefing. Board and mast maybe in the way.

Dagger board, less impact on cockpit, issues with grounding

Put most of the board in long ‘keel’ under the hull with board design that doesn’t impact cockpit ??

Long keel and deep bilge runners.

 

[Tink]

Further thought

People camp out like this



Just the picture makes me feel sick, they have to carry / pull that lot up there and need to be better rested for the risk they are taking compared to sailing.

Can equipment and technology make a smaller boat comfortable to camp on?

 

[Daydream believer]

.



I'm astonished at my self-control, reading nearly four pages of replies before joining. There's actually a K6 at my club. It doesn't get much use, presumably because it's 260KG to haul out...like pulling up a Wayfarer whose crew haven't alighted yet...

...and, for singlehanding, even with its ballast centreboard, I'm not certain it's much less daunting than the Osprey!

I've looked at the K1 on Apollo Duck, and it sounds appealing, but the £5,000+ (which they mostly sell for) is yacht money to me...

Nothing daunting about a K1. The one at our club was sailed by a girl & she pulled it up the beach - It weighs 125 KG which is lighter than your Osprey by far & less than some of the boats suggested here.
I also note Dan that you are not really sailing that Osprey if you only have the main & no jib. Why are you not on the wire?
Neither is it much use if you can only use it in light airs. Drive all the way to the water & the wind pipes up & apart from banter with club mates your time has been wasted. ( Unless you get a sailboard!!)
The girl in question sailed her K1 in quite windy conditions
But i take your point about price & £5K for a second hand one is well over the top.