Questionnaire. Sailing/Power vessels<20m crossing TSS's

[jameshowells1]

Questionnaire. Sailing/Power vessels<20m crossing TSS\'s

Below is a link to questionnaire on rule 10(j) of colregs which forms part of my research for BSc Marine Studies. Click on the link and the online questionnaire will take approx. 10 minutes to complete.
The aims are to find out if leisure mariners have a different interpretation of this rule than merchant mariners, and to see if this could lead to an increased risk of collision. Also to investigate any possible causes of differences of opinion and to consider possible improvements to rule 10(j)
http://FreeOnlineSurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=o65u3uprv3koxz2566394
Thank you very much for your anticipated support with this research.

 

[prr]

Re: Questionnaire. Sailing/Power vessels<20m crossing TSS\'s

All your questions are directed to Merchant Mariners, so why are you asking them to Leisure Mariners on this site & not a Merchant Mariners site?

 

[Dyflin]

Re: Questionnaire. Sailing/Power vessels<20m crossing TSS\'s

[ QUOTE ]
All your questions are directed to Merchant Mariners, so why are you asking them to Leisure Mariners on this site & not a Merchant Mariners site?

[/ QUOTE ]

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[prr]

Re: Questionnaire. Sailing/Power vessels<20m crossing TSS\'s

Ok, but only a few OOW´s would read it (Spotters!)
He should try their Union Paper NUMAST Telegraph or their website nautilusuk.org

 

[laurance]

Parts of this rule deal specifically with the interaction between 'small' and 'large' vessels, if you are one half of this equation then putting yourself in the mindset of an OOW seems to me a valuable exercise. Equally it would be useful if more OOW's had experience of crossing TSS's in small vessels.
A robust debate on the COLREGS by all who's safety depends on them should be encouraged in every quarter. This seems to have been carefully placed in the proper part of the forum but it would be a shame if recreational seafarers did not get to read and answer it at a result.
The us-and-them atmosphere between commercial and pleasure sailors can do no good when it comes to the COLREGS.

 

[voith]

hi all,
well I am a near continental master qualified up to 20000t and even though I am on basic equiped vessels, after looking at that list of questions, to me it really only boiled down to this, who cares tuppenth what length the other vessel is, if its in your way you have to do something about it full stop, you can't stand on the bridge/wheelhouse jumping up and down shouting follow the regs, (and to tell the truth WAFI's really wind me up and after altering course the wheelhouse does tend to turn blue) you still have to use self preservation and take proper avoiding action.

I work in a practical way so trying to put distances and times into the answers did not work with me as there are so many variables, I tend to operate in a defensive way and to try to eliminate the problem from the first sight of the other vessel.

where a lot of the problems lay I think, is its becoming an arcade game in the bridge, with the new chart plotters, officers are steaming down a line, and wo betide anyone who interferes with your course, you find bridge officers determined to hit that mark of the waypoint, you only have to watch the routing patterns off places like Skagen for example, to see this, there can be too much reliance on the equipment, and not enough seat of the pants basic seamanship.

Mind you, I would fight you if you wanted to take my auto pilot away

all the best
voith

 

[Neville220]

Parts of this rule deal specifically with the interaction between 'small' and 'large' vessels, if you are one half of this equation then putting yourself in the mindset of an OOW seems to me a valuable exercise. Equally it would be useful if more OOW's had experience of crossing TSS's in small vessels.
A robust debate on the COLREGS by all who's safety depends on them should be encouraged in every quarter. This seems to have been carefully placed in the proper part of the forum but it would be a shame if recreational seafarers did not get to read and answer it at a result.
The us-and-them atmosphere between commercial and pleasure sailors can do no good when it comes to the COLREGS.

HEAR HEAR!!! I found it extremely interesting.

 

[Neville220]

"I work in a practical way so trying to put distances and times into the answers did not work with me as there are so many variables, I tend to operate in a defensive way and to try to eliminate the problem from the first sight of the other vessel."

Couldn't agree more.

 

[mrcharly]

I've never skippered a large vessel, only steered a few barges through TSS.

It seems to me that talk of distances is immaterial - time is what matters. Crossing 0.5NM in front of a container ship might be fine if it's moving at 1/4knot - damn well not fine if it's shifting at 20knots.

The most trouble I've had was coming up the Humber, with a skipper who 'knew the rules'. That was fine until an unladen container ship, broadside the tide, started manoeuvring across our track. Sure we were under sail and they were stationary, however I doubt the wind and tide gave them much choice in when to start moving.

 

[Neville220]

I've never skippered a large vessel, only steered a few barges through TSS.

It seems to me that talk of distances is immaterial - time is what matters. Crossing 0.5NM in front of a container ship might be fine if it's moving at 1/4knot - damn well not fine if it's shifting at 20knots.

The most trouble I've had was coming up the Humber, with a skipper who 'knew the rules'. That was fine until an unladen container ship, broadside the tide, started manoeuvring across our track. Sure we were under sail and they were stationary, however I doubt the wind and tide gave them much choice in when to start moving.

I didn't think we had many barges up here (Grimsby) for quite a while.

I was born out of my time as I would have loved that work.

 

[mrcharly]

I used to liveaboard. First barge was a 15m dutch barge, converted from sail to motor. I motored her up from London and sold her a couple of years later. Think she's still in Goole marina although the new owners had plans to go to France.

2nd was a fully rigged 20m barge, that we sailed over from The Netherlands. She still moored upstream of York, on the Ouse.

 

[Capt Cautious]

An interesting survey, but I'm left wondering how much he actually knows about the "not to impede" problem himself. The questions that use time as the criteria seem to imply that he's not really aware of what goes on on the bridge of a ship. We invariably use distance as our decision making criteria - based upon the turning circle, stopping distance etc.
This argument has been batted around incessantly recently, however - for what its worth - the visible range of a mastlight on a large vessel is 6 miles, the audible range of her whistle (to indicate manouvres or doubt) is 2 miles. The thinking behind those figures can only be guessed at, but it might be worth considering it has something to do with the range at which you might want to start thinking about action, and the range at which you should consider bailing out. Why blast away furiously if he aint gonna hear you ?
If risk of collision exists, then it exists and I am now required to take action. The size of the vessel makes no difference at that stage. Except of course that the little bugger is still required to keep out of my damn way.
CC

 

[snowleopard]

I'm a WAFI. I just wandered into the forum as a result of seeing the Belgrano thread but of course this topic is of considerable interest. I think it would be useful to pass on my understanding of the rules and the problems implementing them in a small boat. In crude terms, the power/sail rules say that in a close-quarters situation the sailing vessel is stand-on but in a TSS the small vessel should take early action to avoid getting into a close-quarters situation. The meaning of 'shall not impede' is not very well understood in the WAFI world. In fact I have heard there was an instructor at BRNC Dartmouth who didn't understand it either and taught a generation of Grey Funnel jockeys that it meant vessels following a TSS were stand-on to all crossing vessels.

The problem with a small boat is that it is very difficult to determine whether a risk of collision exists. On a rolling and pitching 35 footer the best one can hope for with a hand bearing compass is to get within 3-5° so a change in bearing of an approaching vessel won't become apparent until the distance is under a mile. MARPA and AIS are only available on a minority of small boats so most of us don't have any CPA data to work with.

In the absence of AIS we have very little luck with calling on CH16. 'Blue ship in position xxx yyy' rarely gets a response. We are left with having to guess the intentions of the ship. Has he seen us and made a course alteration (too small for us to detect) on the basis of his ARPA or has he just not seen us? Is he operating on Gross Tonnage Rule? We don't know. What we do know is that a collision will just mark his paintwork but it will spoil our whole day. Not surprisingly we tend to chicken out rather than stand on. We are aware that if you have a nice safe CPA plotted and we suddenly stop or reverse course it can be annoying but I hope you see where we're coming from.

 

[Capt Cautious]

I'm a WAFI. I just wandered into the forum as a result of seeing the Belgrano thread but of course this topic is of considerable interest. I think it would be useful to pass on my understanding of the rules and the problems implementing them in a small boat. In crude terms, the power/sail rules say that in a close-quarters situation the sailing vessel is stand-on but in a TSS the small vessel should take early action to avoid getting into a close-quarters situation. The meaning of 'shall not impede' is not very well understood in the WAFI world. In fact I have heard there was an instructor at BRNC Dartmouth who didn't understand it either and taught a generation of Grey Funnel jockeys that it meant vessels following a TSS were stand-on to all crossing vessels.

The problem with a small boat is that it is very difficult to determine whether a risk of collision exists. On a rolling and pitching 35 footer the best one can hope for with a hand bearing compass is to get within 3-5° so a change in bearing of an approaching vessel won't become apparent until the distance is under a mile. MARPA and AIS are only available on a minority of small boats so most of us don't have any CPA data to work with.

In the absence of AIS we have very little luck with calling on CH16. 'Blue ship in position xxx yyy' rarely gets a response. We are left with having to guess the intentions of the ship. Has he seen us and made a course alteration (too small for us to detect) on the basis of his ARPA or has he just not seen us? Is he operating on Gross Tonnage Rule? We don't know. What we do know is that a collision will just mark his paintwork but it will spoil our whole day. Not surprisingly we tend to chicken out rather than stand on. We are aware that if you have a nice safe CPA plotted and we suddenly stop or reverse course it can be annoying but I hope you see where we're coming from.

The whole idea is that the vessel in the TSS shouldnt HAVE to alter for you, because you have a good understanding of what "not to impede" means and have taken early action to allow sufficient searoom for her safe passage. Unfortunately, by standing on, whether wind driven or under power, you are making things worse. You are STILL required to keep out of the way. The problem in the mix is that the large vessel is also now required to avoid YOU. An ambiguous situation that causes a lot of problems, not least on this forum!!
CC