Question for IRPCS experts

[dom]

Fourthly, people who feel they have been wronged in colregs often seem to set arbitrary starting points for applying the rules.

Nothing wrong with that; I mean my dear wife always starts with the premise that she's always right; she sees the purpose of any discussion as an attempt to figure out precisely why

 

[Romeo]

Smile and wave. The fact you were able to safely manoeuvre out the way perhaps indicates that you were not that restricted by the channel. Perhaps it is a matter of scale. No harm done.

 

[tcm]

TCM I agree about the dose of chill. I don't think it would spoil my day, or prompt me to make an angry sounding post on here, if I had to 'move to the left'.

However, I wonder who it is that you think is teaching that 'power gives way to sail'?

I've sailed for over forty years, and had lessons, both formal and informal, from a large number of people. I've never been taught that.

Also, amongst my many sailing friends, I'm pretty sure that not one of them believes power always give way to sail.

Well, you must have very knowledgeable friends! I heard first-hand reports (which makes mine 2nd hand..) of dinghy sailing instructors giving the casual rule, and when one candidate demurred they were told fairly firmly "No, power gives way to sail"

 

[Newboy6458]

Thanks very much guys for all your comments.

I'm sorry if you think I was angry and needed to chill. That wasn't the case or the impression I wanted to get across. I was merely a little surprised at the answer of being exempt from keeping to the right and was looking for a written reference for it. I certainly don't claim expert knowledge, more a working level which normally seems sufficient for day to day. If a left turn is required, then so be it. However I would like to fill any obvious gaps, like exemptions........

L'escargot, thanks for the reference. I had looked at it the night before, saw it all seemed common sense with no exotica, and filed it away.

I fully agree with all who say, consideration, plus a bit of anticipation should be the order of the day.

Enough from me, be careful out there, as they say.

 

[Mariner69]

I would suggest that it also good manners for the vessel going against the stream to hang back if necessary to allow more room for the vessel going with the flood to pass. Just good manners, like passing the condiments. It doesn't matter if you are in sail or motor; the intention of the rules is to provide some measure of consistency and clarity.

 

[johnalison]

This may be sacrilege (and not answering the OP to boot) but is it unreasonable to suggest that where a sailing vessel has an auxiliary means of propulsion which *can* be used to facilitate keeping to the correct side of a channel it is both prudent and sociable to use it when there is a significant amount of traffic about?

Tacking a fair sized yacht up or down a river to or from a mooring is a lovely thing but I like to do it on a crisp autumn day mid-week, not a summer sunday afternoon when the fairway is crowded. I think we've all seen inconsiderate people carving chaos into chichester harbour entrance or up one of the rivers as they demonstrate their mad sailing skillz tacking back and forth at maximum speed across the fairway seemingly oblivious to the scattering lines of vessels under power.

The are certainly channels such as the Hamble which get too busy for sailing to be practicable or allowed but for the question originally posed it is only necessary to consider two vessels. I'm not in the habit of beating up narrow channels because my boat is not handy enough and those who sail her too lazy but it would be a sad day if people felt discouraged from exercising their sailing skills because of minor inconvenience to powered craft. I have recently returned from sailing around the Rugen area where there are extensive and long narrow channels used by yachts and ferries. In my experience over several years there I have never seen any problems arising from sailing boats making their way up the wrong side occasionally, even though most craft stay on the right.

 

[Twister_Ken]

From l'escargot's link to Bew-Lee's rules and regs...

Please keep to the starboard side of Fairway

Not hard to understand.

 

[tcm]

From l'escargot's link to Bew-Lee's rules and regs...

Please keep to the starboard side of Fairway

Not hard to understand.

True. Sound like the OP has happened across a possibly-semi-drunken "hurrah let's go our annual cruise" departure which of course is just bound to be absolute bedlam. Same with the rtw solo yachtsmen and wimmin letting off ILLEGAL red flareswhen they arrive back to Sables D'Olonnes - they ought to get nicked!, definitely, esp with the evidence on TV....

 

[Ceirwan]

The way sailors stop reading the colregs on the page that says "motor gives way to sail" makes me laugh. The OP is obviously a knowledgable exception by asking the question

L

The way sailors stop reading the colregs on the page that says "motor gives way to sail" makes me laugh. The OP is obviously a knowledgable exception by asking the question

L

Not quite sure if this is supposed to be a subtle dig?
Not that it matters but I work as the master on a 19m CTV, so if anything I'm coming from a commercial power driven perspective, not a sailors.

It tuns out I read the OPS post slightly wrong for some reason in my head I thought he was on the port side of the channel not the starboard, so that being the case here's my thought process:

First off Rule 9. There is a question if a channel 100m wide can be classed as a 'narrow' channel for boats this size, my suspicion in this case is that it would be and the rule is quite clear: keep the starboard side as much as is practical. There is no reason why the sailing vessels couldn't keep to the reds, its not a case of 'when convenient' its a case of when practical.
As both vessels are under 20m we can safely ignore that part of the rule, although it is worth noting that there is a distinction between 'should not impede' and 'will keep clear'

Now moving onto Rule 18, responsibilities between vessels. 'Except where Rules 9,10 and 13 otherwise require', we've already established what Rule 9 requires. Rule 10 is TSS and Rule 13 is overtaking, neither apply here. But lets say that Rule 9 also doesn't apply because its not a narrow channel.
In which situation its pretty clear that a power driven vessel (the op) shall keep clear of a sailing vessel.

So there are two scenarios, one where the OP is the stand on vessel, the other where he isn't. But as I said (now that I correctly read the OPS second post... sorry again!) I think this is a pretty clear cut case of a narrow channel, as as the OP was correctly following the starboard side of the channel its up to the sailing vessels to keep clear.

 

[Elessar]

Not quite sure if this is supposed to be a subtle dig?
Not that it matters but I work as the master on a 19m CTV, so if anything I'm coming from a commercial power driven perspective, not a sailors.

It tuns out I read the OPS post slightly wrong for some reason in my head I thought he was on the port side of the channel not the starboard, so that being the case here's my thought process:

First off Rule 9. There is a question if a channel 100m wide can be classed as a 'narrow' channel for boats this size, my suspicion in this case is that it would be and the rule is quite clear: keep the starboard side as much as is practical. There is no reason why the sailing vessels couldn't keep to the reds, its not a case of 'when convenient' its a case of when practical.
As both vessels are under 20m we can safely ignore that part of the rule, although it is worth noting that there is a distinction between 'should not impede' and 'will keep clear'

Now moving onto Rule 18, responsibilities between vessels. 'Except where Rules 9,10 and 13 otherwise require', we've already established what Rule 9 requires. Rule 10 is TSS and Rule 13 is overtaking, neither apply here. But lets say that Rule 9 also doesn't apply because its not a narrow channel.
In which situation its pretty clear that a power driven vessel (the op) shall keep clear of a sailing vessel.

So there are two scenarios, one where the OP is the stand on vessel, the other where he isn't. But as I said (now that I correctly read the OPS second post... sorry again!) I think this is a pretty clear cut case of a narrow channel, as as the OP was correctly following the starboard side of the channel its up to the sailing vessels to keep clear.

Apologies. It wasn't meant to be subtle.

As I wasn't to know you had misread the OP you can see my point. I have been overtaken by a sailing boat that claimed "motor gives way" and that's the basics. Way too many know only the motor gives way rule.

 

[Newboy6458]

Thanks Ceirwan, your first post makes much more sense now.

The subject of sailing vessels overtaking in general might be the basis for ananother thread perhaps??????

Phil

 

[Uricanejack]

Not quite sure if this is supposed to be a subtle dig?
Not that it matters but I work as the master on a 19m CTV, so if anything I'm coming from a commercial power driven perspective, not a sailors.

It tuns out I read the OPS post slightly wrong for some reason in my head I thought he was on the port side of the channel not the starboard, so that being the case here's my thought process:

First off Rule 9. There is a question if a channel 100m wide can be classed as a 'narrow' channel for boats this size, my suspicion in this case is that it would be and the rule is quite clear: keep the starboard side as much as is practical. There is no reason why the sailing vessels couldn't keep to the reds, its not a case of 'when convenient' its a case of when practical.
As both vessels are under 20m we can safely ignore that part of the rule, although it is worth noting that there is a distinction between 'should not impede' and 'will keep clear'

Now moving onto Rule 18, responsibilities between vessels. 'Except where Rules 9,10 and 13 otherwise require', we've already established what Rule 9 requires. Rule 10 is TSS and Rule 13 is overtaking, neither apply here. But lets say that Rule 9 also doesn't apply because its not a narrow channel.
In which situation its pretty clear that a power driven vessel (the op) shall keep clear of a sailing vessel.

So there are two scenarios, one where the OP is the stand on vessel, the other where he isn't. But as I said (now that I correctly read the OPS second post... sorry again!) I think this is a pretty clear cut case of a narrow channel, as as the OP was correctly following the starboard side of the channel its up to the sailing vessels to keep clear.

Just out curiosity I was wondering what CTV stands for. I took a few guess's and came up with Commercial Tow Vessel. I Eliminated Commercial Tall Vessel when your perspective is power driven.

To be very particular and probably argumentative. Yes in narrow a channel rule 9 applies.
The requirements of rule 9 include a requirement for vessels using the channel to keep as near to the starboard side as is safe and particle. The sailing vessel was using the channel and on the port side so in contravention of this part of rule 9.
This does not make the sailing vessel a give way vessel according to the rules.
Rule 9 does not state any two vessels meeting in a narrow channel shall give way to each other by altering to starboard. although this would be the common sense or good seamanship way of looking at it.
Rule 9 requires all vessels using the to prevent the risk of collision occurring in the first place. by keeping to the starboard side.
Rule 9 further requires vessels of less than 20 m and sailing vessels not to impede. The passage of a vessel using the channel.
The size of the channel becomes important at this point. Is it narrow or not as far as the boats are concerned both being under 20m
For the sake of this argument assume it is a narrow channel and the power driven vessel is using the channel appropriately.
According to rule 9 The sailing vessel should not impede.
This still does not mean the sailing vessel is now a give way vessel according to the rules. even though common sense and good seamanship might.
Risk of collision now exists between the sailing vessel and the power driven vessel less than 20m.

The power driven vessel is still the give way vessel.

 

[Ceirwan]

Just out curiosity I was wondering what CTV stands for. I took a few guess's and came up with Commercial Tow Vessel. I Eliminated Commercial Tall Vessel when your perspective is power driven.

To be very particular and probably argumentative. Yes in narrow a channel rule 9 applies.
The requirements of rule 9 include a requirement for vessels using the channel to keep as near to the starboard side as is safe and particle. The sailing vessel was using the channel and on the port side so in contravention of this part of rule 9.
This does not make the sailing vessel a give way vessel according to the rules.
Rule 9 does not state any two vessels meeting in a narrow channel shall give way to each other by altering to starboard. although this would be the common sense or good seamanship way of looking at it.
Rule 9 requires all vessels using the to prevent the risk of collision occurring in the first place. by keeping to the starboard side.
Rule 9 further requires vessels of less than 20 m and sailing vessels not to impede. The passage of a vessel using the channel.
The size of the channel becomes important at this point. Is it narrow or not as far as the boats are concerned both being under 20m
For the sake of this argument assume it is a narrow channel and the power driven vessel is using the channel appropriately.
According to rule 9 The sailing vessel should not impede.
This still does not mean the sailing vessel is now a give way vessel according to the rules. even though common sense and good seamanship might.
Risk of collision now exists between the sailing vessel and the power driven vessel less than 20m.

The power driven vessel is still the give way vessel.

All true.
There are lots of nuances to the col regs and my post was mainly for the initial responsibilities. However as you say, if a risk of collision develops than the actions the vessels then take would be in accordance with the rest of the rules. We literally spent days going over this stuff at college before I sat my ticket and I unfortunately don't retain knowledge as much as I'd like.

As you also said there is a distinction between Impede and Give way, for example from Rule 10 'A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a
sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane'
The initial situation is that the sailing vessel should be keeping clear of the power driven vessel. However if a close quarters situation does develop, regardless of who is at fault for it happening, then the vessels involved would have to act in accordance with the rules which could mean the vessel following the TSS becomes the give way vessel.

Oh and CTV means 'Crew Transfer Vessel' This one.

 

[lw395]

In reality, there are many reasons why you might come across a sailing vessel on the 'wrong' side of a river like Beaulieu.
He may have just left his mooring, he may have just finished avoiding another vessel which might have been anything from commercial to a bunch of out of control kayaks.
If you want to enjoy sailing in the Solent, it's best not to do it from a viewpoint of scoring points on colregs.