Pulling out of a sale post survey..can I?

[benjenbav]

On the subject of "contract before survey" or "survey before contract", an observation from the parallel universe of real estate:

When I was at law school we were taught that the norm was that a contract was entered into and only afterwards did title investigation happen. (The standard form of contract allowed buyers to rescind if there was a title problem which could not be rectified).

Now, 20-odd years on, it is almost unheard of not to investigate title before exchanging contracts.

I'm not sure which way is better, both have pros and cons and I only mention this as a reflection on how conventional practices sometimes change over time.

 

[DAKA]

The broker refuses to allow a full survey prior to an offer being accepted (quoted BMF rules).

The boat is 750 miles from me and looks in need of TLC.

I've arranged a surveyor to inspect the boat tomorrow, as if he was a private buyer and report a list of specific issues, plus a general idea of whether the look of the boat is cosmetic or more deep seated.

Now my question is, if I make an offer and it's accepted - subject to survey - pay the broker a depoist and the surveyors report contains things I'm not happy with, can I walk away and have my deposit returned?

If the deposit is non refundable, why cannot I have a full survey 1st?

Bit of a side issue but you need to check and get advice on this..........

I signed an RYA contract the last time I bought a boat and it contained a clause to the effect that if the survey wasn't complete and findings passed to seller with in 14/21 days then I had to complete the sale without a survey.

Sounds reasonable but when you are a long way away 14 or 21 days isn't long to arrange a surveyor who in my case let me down so I had a delay while a second surveyor was arranged, arranged a lift, wait for a report to be typed up and sent and a little time to digest it and then to get the findings to the seller.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

On the subject of "contract before survey" or "survey before contract", an observation from the parallel universe of real estate:

When I was at law school we were taught that the norm was that a contract was entered into and only afterwards did title investigation happen. (The standard form of contract allowed buyers to rescind if there was a title problem which could not be rectified).

Now, 20-odd years on, it is almost unheard of not to investigate title before exchanging contracts.

I'm not sure which way is better, both have pros and cons and I only mention this as a reflection on how conventional practices sometimes change over time.

It depends on which side of the fence you're sitting. Brokers know that once buyer and seller agree to a contract, they are effectively hooked and both parties are mentally committed to fulfilling the contract whatever the survey comes up with; it's human nature. I don't know how many buyers pull out after a survey but I bet it's a small number. Brokers want contract before survey because it's in their own interest.
On the other hand, survey before contract could easily have the opposite effect, appraising the buyer of all of the boat's faults before he becomes emotionally attached to it. It's like seeing all the bad points about your SWMBO before you get married. Many of us wouldn't turn up at the altar.
Slightly off subject but I have occasionally wondered why marine survey companies don't offer some kind of non-conditional fixed price pre contract inspections which would give buyers a good idea of a boat's condition before committing to a contract

 

[Nealo]

Firstly

I am the broker in question so I know that the deposit is safe and I am also then very much aware of my reasonableness! LOL!
As an individual my own reputation is very important and I regularly have repeat customers and customers who come via recommendation. I am proud of that.
The reality is that it is buttoned down tighter than that.
Without scanning back above I think it was Imperial One who mentioned the definitive 5% (not 51%) of the cost to fix snags? If however the buyer chooses to back out for a lesser value or reason then I will try and find a way of completing, but I would alllow the buyer to back out with minimal expense (save putting bits right or real costs to the vendor as discussed).

As for the vendor paying a deposit....
Well the rest are sensible questions and areas that need clarifying or possibly rule bending, but that's plain silly.
If you are buying anything in life then you expect to make a commitment and that usually means a deposit.If the vendor was to then back out then absolutely, of course, you would get your full deposit back, but if they have accepted your offer and accepted your deposit (into our client account) then we will also have asked them to sign a contract agreeing to the sale and the terms of it.

Tom

Doesn't apply to buying a house, or a car, or anything else I can think of in fact. The law of contract is complicated enough as it is. In my opinion introducing deposits only serves to make it more complicated. Does everyone agree that in most instances boating is a buyers market at present? It is logical therefore to conclude that a deposit should only be paid when it benefits the buyer. I can see why a broker, who is acting for the vendor, should try to argue for a deposit, he's only doing his job. That doesn't make it the correct or only way of proceeding.

 

[Bassplayer]

If arranging/paying for a survey and a liftout doesn't show commitment, what does? Am I really going to lay out that sort of money for a joy ride? I think not. It is a buyers market - every boat I have enquired after has elicited the response from the broker " the owner is very keen to sell" - usually followed by a lowering of the price. If the owner and broker want to sell then they should agree to a survey first - can't see the problem with that.

 

[Jaytac]

Lesson here is for Vendors not to let a lazy broker lose you a sale - "it's not what we usually do ".........who gives a sh#t, you are there to broker the deal not write it.

If a prospective buyer wanted to Survey before a contract was signed, then WTF have I got to lose??? Buyer risks having the boat sold from under him. but if he is happy with that risk why should I care? - he spending hundreds of £££'s takes him away from tirekicker.........and at least when we talk on price it will be meaningful and I have got him a few hundred quid keen already.........and if it falls through? well, I would have agreed to receive a copy of the survey and whilst I can't rely on it very useful for marketing to the next potential buyer...........of course downside for the broker is having to get off his ar#e away from a warm Portakabin (whether glass fronted or not).


"reasonable" deductions from the deposit on no sale? LOL! I bet - that's why only the very trusting should give a substantial deposit before agreeing a final price (and you can't do that pre-survey). 10% to be seen as "serious" especially to an unknown 3rd party in a rented suit.........Dream_on.com. Strange how the contract is sufficient and binding on you - but when it comes to the broker and his commission then it's "cash is king" On that I agree with the Broker, he who has the cash has the whip hand when things start to unravel.

But YMMV...........

 

[PaulGooch]

I think the OP's actions are perfectly reasonable. When i'm buying something, whether it be a boat or a packet of crisps i do it my way, or no way.

Never mind brokers "usual ways" etc. When i sold my last boat, the buyers paid £15k by CHAPS without seeing the boat, just some pics.

When i bought my current boat, i looked at it and sea trialled it, went away to look at another boat, which i also wanted to sea trial. Both boats were MF 805's but one had the Nanni engine and the other a Penta, reason for the sea trials was partly to see the differences between the two engines. Walton Marine at Upton, the broker for the second boat would not even let me have the keys to the engine until an offer was made and accepted and a deposit was paid. I bought the other boat, which i'm delighted with, and was equally delighted to see the one at Walton Marine still on sale nearly a year later, at a much reduced price

 

[[23929]]

If you were the vendor and a surveyor damages your boat during the survey, who would you chase for the repair costs ?

 

[Jaytac]

If you were the vendor and a surveyor damages your boat during the survey, who would you chase for the repair costs ?

I don't see it as a signficant risk - but the thing about risk is that sometimes it does crystalise......gotta be able to deal or live with the consequences.

Depending on the damage I would either swallow it (on a sh#t happens basis), or failing that then look to the Surveyor, Purchasor and Broker .......freindly then either lawyer or whatever

In an ideal world would be an agreement in place between all parties, but unless someone had a suitable document to hand I personally would not bother, except to put in writing "no destructive testing".

For me a Purchasor willing to spend money on a survey (either before or after a sale contract signed) is worth taking some risks for. Others may view things differently - but that's business


In practice I don't think OP's request is that common, but IMO just because not the norm don't make it wrong nor should it be refused point blank.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

If you were the vendor and a surveyor damages your boat during the survey, who would you chase for the repair costs ?

Thats a bit of a red herring. Who would you chase if the surveyor damaged the boat after the contract was signed? Anyway, if you take this argument to it's logical extension, no vendor should allow any inspection of a boat he is selling lest it is damaged. Of course, this is plainly stupid

 

[gjgm]

One aspect comming out of this thread is how low an opinion many seem to hold for (some) brokers. I m not sure all my experiences reflect the portacabin and rented suit spiv ; but its providing me with some mirth this morning !
I can see the merit of a standard document, and I can see why brokers would advise using one, as even the best broker must have plenty of experiences of the difficult,unreasonable,inexperienced,changing-mind public ! (Thats enough about me, though). Having a standard doc does at least illustrate a mutually agreed way to proceed, that then sets some expectations on both sides.
There are of course many ways to buy a boat, but not everyone is that savvy about the practice. Goodness, just think back to the shock some people showed when they discovered their marine mortgage liability didnt stop at the boat.

 

[Nautibusiness]

One aspect comming out of this thread is how low an opinion many seem to hold for (some) brokers. I m not sure all my experiences reflect the portacabin and rented suit spiv ; but its providing me with some mirth this morning !
I can see the merit of a standard document, and I can see why brokers would advise using one, as even the best broker must have plenty of experiences of the difficult,unreasonable,inexperienced,changing-mind public ! (Thats enough about me, though). Having a standard doc does at least illustrate a mutually agreed way to proceed, that then sets some expectations on both sides.
There are of course many ways to buy a boat, but not everyone is that savvy about the practice. Goodness, just think back to the shock some people showed when they discovered their marine mortgage liability didnt stop at the boat.

Gotta say I've enjoyed this thread.
Despite being the despised broker I am pleased to say that I am in a centrally heated office and not wearing a suit, hired or otherwise!

I would ask that we are not all tarred with the same brush please!
...pretty please...

There is a structured pattern that a brokerage sale process should follow, but (most) brokers and vendors are human beings and do understand the concerns and worries that a buyer may have when parting with what is usually one of the largest amounts of cash of their lives.
I will try and follow the usual sales process as it does protect both the vendor and buyer, but I will (as many brokers will) look at alternative routes to come to a happy completion IF neither party is put to any significant risk.

 

[Imperial One]

Gotta say I've enjoyed this thread.
Despite being the despised broker I am pleased to say that I am in a centrally heated office and not wearing a suit, hired or otherwise!

I would ask that we are not all tarred with the same brush please!
...pretty please...

Hi Tom or should that be my fellow despised broker?
Some interesting opinions of us brokers around at the moment - I am with you on the plea for us not to be as derided as we appear to be!

I now have an interesting picture of you in the office without the suit - is it in for cleaning or has it been nicked?

You will be telling us next that you dress as an ordinary boating chap does, nice yellow oilies, short wellies, captains hat, Tom the broker Tee shirt and a cravat.

 

[Bassplayer]

Gotta say I've enjoyed this thread.
Despite being the despised broker I am pleased to say that I am in a centrally heated office and not wearing a suit, hired or otherwise!

And I thought you were all like Ken in Howards Way, perma tan an' all...........

 

[Jaytac]

Gotta say I've enjoyed this thread.
Despite being the despised broker I am pleased to say that I am in a centrally heated office and not wearing a suit, hired or otherwise!

Bluntness used for the sake of clarity - and for comic effect..........

No offence intended to one and all, etc etc

 

[Nautibusiness]

And I thought you were all like Ken in Howards Way, perma tan an' all...........

Errrrr no that's not me.... Luckily!

I get a tan in the summer, mainly 'cos I like to "help" the marina chaps out with the water taxi etc rather than sit in the dull old office!

As for where my suit was....
I have half a dozen or so of average flashness (M&S through to YSL, but NO Armani) which are home to several moth families and a rather large pile of dust knocked off the top of the wardrobe each time the misses grabs a different handbag from above them.
They have lived in the wardrobe since I joined the industry in 2002 and only come out for occassional weddings and the odd funeral.

Nowdays if I have an important meeting the obligatory Chinos, Oxford Blue short sleeve shirt and leather Sebagos come out. For day to day use it's the work logo'd polo shirt, smart (as smart as they can be) jeans and a pair of Clovehitch IIs make up my uniform.

I once owned a nice Breitling that kept terrible time so I went back to my now very old "Citizen" that works perfectly and the poshest car I've had (since my time in IT) has been a comfy, but average Lexus IS diesel. Now it's "cut your cloth accordingly..." and it's an old Vectra!

I have never sold used cars or been an estate agent or, god forbid, a lawyer.

We try hard to work with the utmost integrity (some of us have some) and even hand less experienced buyers and sellers a guide for them to try and understand the whole process.

Some of us are quite nice really!!!

LOL!
Tom

 

[Canopy Locked]

Just for the record, the brokers I spoken to and have dealings with are, broadly speaking, on the ball, helpful and friendly - In fact while doing research into prices achieved, one broker kindly looked up the price of what a near identical boat sold for in 2006 (the advert was still archived on the web)

There was however one broker who dropped a right clanger. They had a boat I was interested in but were more interested in taking mine on brokerage. Sent me the contract, which I sat on to see if they followed it up - figured that would give me a good idea of how they will deal with punters. They never contacted me and I sold my boat privately.

I then tracked down the owner of the boat in question and it transpired he was looking for a smaller boat and would have been delighted to take mine in part ex and work a deal that way - weather we would have done a deal is doubtful having seen pics of his boat... but just an example of the difference between helpful and not so helpful.

Anyhow, just for interest sakes, an update.. The surveyor looked over the boat in question for me on Tuedsay, with the owner present. His brief was to check out about 10 specific issues and to have a good "nose" around to get an overall impression of the boat. Seems like it's basically sound (subject to survey) just needs a good lot of cosmetic work and would benefit from upgrading some of the kit.

So the next step?

Well thanks to all your kind comments regards contracts (and I've had some contractual dealings myself before - so am not totally inexperienced) I have carefully worked out a realistic price and terms under which I am prepared to commit.

I'll prepare a letter to the seller - which I will ask the broker to forward. While I'm sure that the broker would relay the actual amount of my offer to the seller, I'm not sure that he would sit down, show him the details of what other boats have sold for and go through my reasonings - So I figure I need to make my own sales pitch to the owner - after all the broker is, principally, acting for the seller.

I'm pretty sure that the seller will not agree with my findings initially, but if he is prepared to follow through my research and click on the links to the examples of boats that have sold, he might begin to realise that I may not be taking the P...s!

We'll see how it goes.. otherwise I just walk away and wait.

 

[kcrane]

I'll prepare a letter to the seller - which I will ask the broker to forward. While I'm sure that the broker would relay the actual amount of my offer to the seller, I'm not sure that he would sit down, show him the details of what other boats have sold for and go through my reasonings - So I figure I need to make my own sales pitch to the owner - after all the broker is, principally, acting for the seller. I'm pretty sure that the seller will not agree with my findings initially, but if he is prepared to follow through my research and click on the links to the examples of boats that have sold, he might begin to realise that I may not be taking the P...s!

Excellent, my approach has been the same, except you have added the letter idea, which I like, though others may not!

In my case I found 2 owners who said "No, I ignore your research and comparisons, I will hold out while my boat depreciates further". They're obviously entitled the make their own call.

The third owner & his broker were more sanguine (maybe as their boat had been on the market longer) and we struck a mutually acceptable deal.

For the benefit of Nautibusiness and Imperial One (who I'm glad to see on the forum), the seller's broker was capable and helpful, I have no complaints.

 

[AndieMac]

For the benefit of Nautibusiness and Imperial One (who I'm glad to see on the forum), .

I have been impressed by the way Nautibusiness has handled this thread (and others), he appears to be a credible operator and one of the good guys in the industry.

No doubt he would love to assist the boating public with buying or selling , but as a poster....I like his style.

 

[Nautibusiness]

I have been impressed by the way Nautibusiness has handled this thread (and others), he appears to be a credible operator and one of the good guys in the industry.

No doubt he would love to assist the boating public with buying or selling , but as a poster....I like his style.

Thank you AndieMac, that was a nice compliment.

I certainly don't profess to being the font of all boating (buying or using) knowledge, but do try hard to make sure I am a help rather than a hinderance.

But I am here as a boater first and foremost. I just happen to be a broker.

I am rather odd in this industry - some say I am just rather odd - in that I actually love the boating side of the business. I'd love to be able to afford the Range Rover and the HUGE disgusting Rolex (even if I didn't actually buy one), but I also love being afloat.

It doesn't really matter if I am sea trialling a little 5m Rib or delivering a Squadron 58, they all put a huge smile on my face.
For my sins, I am a smelly old fisherman. I own a little Merry Fisher 695 which is a regular site anywhere along the Dorset coast and across to the Channel Islands.

Like many boaters I've had my fair share of c@ck ups and have hopefully learned from them, but due to these c@ck ups I've also learned not to be too judgemental of my fellow boaters and will always lend a hand if I can see people need it.

I'd be lieing if I said that I wouldn't grab an opportunity to sell any forum member a boat if the opportunity arose. Of course I would, but I'd be a very foolish broker if I was also one of the cowboys that some of you seem to have experienced. The internet is a very harsh place if you are caught out as a dodgy dealer! Bad news spreads ten times faster than the good stuff!

So for any fishing tips, by all means ask, apparantly I am supposed to be relatively good at what I do!
And if you wanna buy a boat gov... Got a luverly motor rannd the back that'll suit you perfec.

Tom