Pulling out of a sale post survey..can I?

[gjgm]

Re right and fair, Nautibusiness... well, in line with common practice.
From the sellers point of view the advantage of a deposit is that at least you have some recourse to a financial settlement if the behaviour of the prospective buyer puts you at a financial disadvantage.
But it seems foolish to risk a sale/purchase just for the sake of sticking to some convention. Whatever works, I would say.
If I called you and said I'd like to survey on a boat, it will be done this morning, and all being well, I would then make an offer tomorrow.. you would advise your client against it ? Does that help your client sell his boat?

 

[saltwater_gypsy]

If you are thinking of buying my boat dont read this!!
The usual process in my experience is , post-survey to make a list of defects which require attention and estimates of the cost. You can then give the seller the choice of rectifying all the defects OR dropping the price by a sufficient amount to let you remedy the problem areas or if the figure is unacceptable to the seller....to walk away from the deal..

 

[Nealo]

Rob - Having been through the process a couple of times, I would definately have the boat surveyed prior to making an offer. Apart from anything else, the surveyor is likely to have more of an idea what the boat is worth. I'd do the same if I was buying a house, a car, whatever, especially if it's beyond my own knowledge/expertise.
I would have thought you could find a surveyor who would be prepared to give you a "walk round" opinion of the boat without incurring the cost of a complete survey.
Don't understand all this about having to pay a deposit as a prior condition to a survey - it's your money for pete's sake, you should be calling the shots. Ok a deposit indicates you are a serious buyer but so does paying out several hundred quid for a survey. If you are dealing with the boat of your dreams and worried about someone else getting it then fair enough but there are loads and loads of boats out there for sale and not too many buyers.
So far as contracts go, I have some experience of drafting contracts so I would do it myself but there's no reason why anyone else shouldn't do this. All you have to remember is that it should be absolutley clear what you are agreeing to and, obviously, both parties must agree to all the terms.
In the current climate I'm baffled as to why a broker would be placing obstacles in the way of a potential buyer.
Just my opinion.

 

[kcrane]

It is fair and right that you pay a deposit first, but as ImperialOne has explained, your deposit is safe.

Begs the question how you know his deposit would be safe.

At the end of the day, ask a surveyor to look at a brand new boat and they'll find snags and offer recommendations

A surveyor I used recently reckoned to find more faults on a brand new boat than a two year old boat that had been well looked after.

It's possible the broker may retain some costs if you choose to pull out for the smallest of reasons. Usually if you the buyer has done everything you can to get the sale to proceed then it's unlikely that any costs will come out of your deposit.

That makes my blood run cold. "It's possible..." "...may..." "...some costs..." "...smallest of reasons." "...unlikely that". Your faith in the reasonableness and impartiality of the broker is touching, but I think I'd rather tie things down just a little tighter than that.

The buyer paying a deposit and then doing a survey is traditional, but that's about all it is.

How about this scenario I just made up, in which the seller pays the deposit, not the buyer.

Boat A is a large expensive flybridge, it is overseas and recently on the market. It isn't known how quickly it will or won't sell. I'm interested in buying it, and have appointed an agent to help me in the purchase. I am willing to send a surveyor to look at the boat, following which I'll be in a position to make an offer, being then in full possession of the facts.

It is going to cost a couple of £k to have the survey done and £1k in expenses. I'm nervous that the seller could sell to someone else or withdraw it from the market after I've committed to the spend, so I ask the seller to put down a deposit with my agent so that I can recover my expenses if he walks away.

This is just an illustration of a different view. The position that "the buyer must pay a 10% deposit in advance to be held by the seller's agent" isn't the only way it could/can/should work.

 

[Nautibusiness]

If I called you and said I'd like to survey on a boat, it will be done this morning, and all being well, I would then make an offer tomorrow.. you would advise your client against it ? Does that help your client sell his boat?

No of course I wouldn't, but I would also advise the buyer that until an offer was accepted and deposit received accordingly the boat would remain on the market.
I'd also advise that anything the surveyor did (eg: Scraping antifoul) would need to be rectified should the buyer choose not to proceed.

It does cut both ways and a bit of common sense must prevail.
Rules are there to be broken, but certainly not to the detriment of the vendor or for that matter the buyer.

 

[gjgm]

No of course I wouldn't, but I would also advise the buyer that until an offer was accepted and deposit received accordingly the boat would remain on the market.
I'd also advise that anything the surveyor did (eg: Scraping antifoul) would need to be rectified should the buyer choose not to proceed.

It does cut both ways and a bit of common sense must prevail.
Rules are there to be broken, but certainly not to the detriment of the vendor or for that matter the buyer.

Of course the boat remains on the market; and a slap of a/f is going to take 30 seconds !
I m not advocating a no-deposit approach in all cases, but in this case, I dont see the need for one. I m simply saying that the seller/broker should be trying to encourage a buyer, not drive him away!

 

[Nautibusiness]

Mmm, that sounds a bit on the devious side to me and I'm surprised a qualified surveyor is prepared to work on that basis.

Oooo didn't see that bit. That is a bit naughty Rob.
By all means get someone to give the boat a quick walk round, but I don't think that's fair to pretend to be a buyer. That will simply give false expectations to the vendor.

After so many people seem to think it is right to have a survey first, then I'll clarify my own thoughts:
As a broker, I am contracted by the vendor.
That said, I will try and make a deal happen if both parties are very close to agreeing.
I will advise the vendor as best I can, but in the same breath I am obliged to let the buyer know of anything I am aware of that may be wrong with the boat.
I would also suggest that a survey and sea trial are always worth doing on any used boat and that would then be backed up by the "usual" process of offer, deposit, survey...

If the buyer wasn't happy and really wanted to survey the boat before making an offer then I would say categorically "no", but I would point out why the survey happens after and what is entailed following the outcome of the survey.
If he was adamant he wanted the survey first I would then point out that the boat would remain on the market until a deposit had been placed and that any work required as a result of the surveyor having a good dig and a scrape would need to be put right should he not proceed.
That I think is very fair.
If he was OK with this, then I would ask permission from the vendor to carry out a survey on the above terms.
Assuming the vendor didn't mind, a survey could then take place.

I would imagine that most good brokers would also try and do something similar.

Tom

 

[Nautibusiness]

Of course the boat remains on the market; and a slap of a/f is going to take 30 seconds !
I m not advocating a no-deposit approach in all cases, but in this case, I dont see the need for one. I m simply saying that the seller/broker should be trying to encourage a buyer, not drive him away!

I was typing my epic as you were typing your post.
I think I've probably answered your statement?

 

[Nautibusiness]

Begs the question how you know his deposit would be safe.



That makes my blood run cold. "It's possible..." "...may..." "...some costs..." "...smallest of reasons." "...unlikely that". Your faith in the reasonableness and impartiality of the broker is touching, but I think I'd rather tie things down just a little tighter than that.

The buyer paying a deposit and then doing a survey is traditional, but that's about all it is.

How about this scenario I just made up, in which the seller pays the deposit, not the buyer.

Boat A is a large expensive flybridge, it is overseas and recently on the market. It isn't known how quickly it will or won't sell. I'm interested in buying it, and have appointed an agent to help me in the purchase. I am willing to send a surveyor to look at the boat, following which I'll be in a position to make an offer, being then in full possession of the facts.

It is going to cost a couple of £k to have the survey done and £1k in expenses. I'm nervous that the seller could sell to someone else or withdraw it from the market after I've committed to the spend, so I ask the seller to put down a deposit with my agent so that I can recover my expenses if he walks away.

This is just an illustration of a different view. The position that "the buyer must pay a 10% deposit in advance to be held by the seller's agent" isn't the only way it could/can/should work.

Firstly

I am the broker in question so I know that the deposit is safe and I am also then very much aware of my reasonableness! LOL!
As an individual my own reputation is very important and I regularly have repeat customers and customers who come via recommendation. I am proud of that.
The reality is that it is buttoned down tighter than that.
Without scanning back above I think it was Imperial One who mentioned the definitive 5% (not 51%) of the cost to fix snags? If however the buyer chooses to back out for a lesser value or reason then I will try and find a way of completing, but I would alllow the buyer to back out with minimal expense (save putting bits right or real costs to the vendor as discussed).

As for the vendor paying a deposit....
Well the rest are sensible questions and areas that need clarifying or possibly rule bending, but that's plain silly.
If you are buying anything in life then you expect to make a commitment and that usually means a deposit.
If the vendor was to then back out then absolutely, of course, you would get your full deposit back, but if they have accepted your offer and accepted your deposit (into our client account) then we will also have asked them to sign a contract agreeing to the sale and the terms of it.

Tom

 

[kcrane]

As for the vendor paying a deposit....
Well the rest are sensible questions and areas that need clarifying or possibly rule bending, but that's plain silly. If you are buying anything in life then you expect to make a commitment and that usually means a deposit. If the vendor was to then back out then absolutely, of course, you would get your full deposit back, but if they have accepted your offer and accepted your deposit (into our client account) then we will also have asked them to sign a contract agreeing to the sale and the terms of it.

Be a little more open-minded, don't return as quickly as you can to a world in which there is a deposit from the buyer, there is a broker with an unimpeachable client account and the buyer can't have a survey until they've agreed the price. I don't think it needs to be that hidebound, there is nothing sacred about the contract-deposit-client account-survey-completion model, it is embedded, it may feel comfortable, but it isn't the only way.

 

[gjgm]

Be a little more open-minded, don't return as quickly as you can to a world in which there is a deposit from the buyer, there is a broker with an unimpeachable client account and the buyer can't have a survey until they've agreed the price. I don't think it needs to be that hidebound, there is nothing sacred about the contract-deposit-client account-survey-completion model, it is embedded, it may feel comfortable, but it isn't the only way.

Indeed. The last Windy I sold, the guy paid me full up front via Chaps without even seeing the boat. Turned up,said, lovely,thanks alot, and off he went. No broker,but thats just how it was.Daka would probably have the marina fenced off by the fraud squad at the very thought

 

[Jim@sea]

Unfortunately I am one of those sort of people who would try and totally disregard the rules set by the broker. And I would never have a partial or full survey done without me being there. OK the boat is 750 miles away, But if you buy it that's where your money will be. Anyway I once made a mistake by not being there when I had a boat surveyed. I also made a mistake in using a Surveyor "recommended" by the "Broker" and I was ripped off. Anyway I was buying a 33ft Yacht in the Channel Islands. I flew out to see it and agreed to buy it "Subject to Survey" The broker recommended a Surveyor from an adjoining Island who was part of a well known Boatyard. Anyway survey satisfactory, bought the boat. Flew over and lived on it for a week. Found defects which the Surveyor missed. Flew Back. Organised another surveyor from another Island to do another Survey. But this time a real one. It turned out that No2 Surveyor had done a survey 3 years before and found Osmosis etc. And recommended that the hull be treated and painted which was done. But where I was ripped off the Boatyard which had done the hull repair and paint job 3 years before was the very same one who had supplied the "First Surveyor" who never mentioned the repair and paint job. And as my boat was only one of 2 unusual, expensive, and distinctive twin masted yachts in the Channel Islands you cannot tell me that the surveyor would not have remembered that they did a repair and paint 3 years before. None of which appeared in the survey.

 

[Renegade_Master]

I can think of no reason why a broker, or especially the owner, would not want you to or allow you to have a survey carried out prior to paying a deposit.
It is afterall, at your expense.
I would walk and tell them why, the owner may not even be aware?
Does it matter what the BMF "rules" say? Comen sense should prevail.
I would be very nervous about handing over my money to this broker, how hard will it be for you to get him to return it if he he being so unreasonable at this stage?
There are plenty of boats for sale - find another!

Good luck

Cheers
,

Only problem with doing a survey prior to accepted offer, contract signing and deposit is

a) at the sellers risk : who pays for any damage which may occur whilst moving the boat to and from or as a result of the survey? and indeed who would be handling the boat anyway, if I was the seller I would not be keen to possibly waste my time if the buyer "said no thanks, I've seen a cheaper one up the road", after the survey remember he (the potential buyer) under no obligation.

b) at the buyers risk : What if on the day you get the boat lifted and the surveyor attending at your expense, or indeed the day after, the seller gets an unconditional offer and a deposit from another very keen buyer, before you have the results of your expensive survey. Remember you have no contract no deposit paid the seller has no obligation to wait for you, then its first come etc..............

 

[fireball]

a) at the sellers risk - well - if the potential buyer wants to do a survey which involves moving the boat - then they pay for a Pro crew to handle & lift the boat - falls under the Pro's insurance for any damage.

b) at the buyers risk - if the buyer is happy to engage a surveyor without having exclusivity on the vessel then that is his business - the Broker will usually point out this risk.

When I bought my first big boat I went all over the boat with a fine toothcomb. The surveyor only really did the technical bits as I (with F-i-Law) had already checked the boat to our satisfaction. For us - the boat was only a few miles away, but if it was a significant distance away then I would think appropriate to get a pro view from a local surveyor before travelling out myself - if the broker wishes to block that then that could indicate there is something wrong with the boat that they have not disclosed (either intentionally or not)

 

[kcrane]

a) at the sellers risk - well - if the potential buyer wants to do a survey which involves moving the boat - then they pay for a Pro crew to handle & lift the boat - falls under the Pro's insurance for any damage.

b) at the buyers risk - if the buyer is happy to engage a surveyor without having exclusivity on the vessel then that is his business - the Broker will usually point out this risk.

Agreed. I'd take a buyer's willingness to fund a lift and survey as a good sign. I doubt many buyers worry about being outbid these days.

 

[Canopy Locked]

Good heavens, Steady on Chaps...... did not mean to set off WW3!!

My situation is that if I want to view the boat myself it's a 3 day trip (flying or driving and I've still go to dig the snow away to get the car out of the barn!!) SWMBO won't let me take the Landy and do i really want to drive 1500 miles in an old Landrover... think not!

I have been supplied with high quality pics; I know what the boat is and what it has; I know the boat type has a good reputation. The boat is "scruffy" and will need a few weeks in a yard. I have also been doing a good bit of research and have a number of examples of what similar age boats of this type have been selling for and have examples of ones that have not sold (overpriced?)

What I don't know is whether the boat is basically sound or whether it's a complete dog. The surveyor I've asked to view has been recommended by the company I use for Coding - but the broker has said he also knows the surveyor and is happy for the surveyor to act on my behalf - the surveyor is not posing as a buyer under false pretences (even I think that would be a touch unsporting!) - he's just there to have a look around the boat as if he were me, but with a more experienced eye than mine.

If the boat looks like it's basically good, I will try to work a deal with the broker and move forward to a full survey.

At the end of the day, it's better for me to spend £100 on a surveyor to make an initial assesment rather then £300+ which is what it would cost me to make the 1500 mile round trip.

Tom - you have PM

Thanks again for all your advice

 

[Nick_H]

No NIck,

You are wrong in your reading but perhaps helped by the fact that the cut and paste facility on my Mac into the forum page allowed the small 1 which was a note to be a full sized 1.

Hence the misunderstanding, despite the brackets of 51%.

The extract from the template document says -
...........equal to or exceeds [5]1% of the purchase price............

The 1 refers to a note that allows the broker (or whoever) to put in whatever figure you wish to agree on.
It is typically five percent which I feel is more than enough.

For clarity the note on the contract template states -

5% will not always be an appropriate figure and the point should be negotiated between the Parties prior to signing


Mike.

Apologies, it's fairly obvious it wouldn't be 51%. Having said that, even at 5% or 2%, I wouldn't sign up to it. What if the surveyor finds evidence that it's been partially sunk, or has had some other major repair? There may be no further repair work needed, so the buyer couldn't argue he needed to spend more than x% on it, and would therefore be legally obliged to buy a boat that may have all sorts of untold problems in the future. Personally, i'm happy to take the small risk of being outbid by another buyer that comes with not paying a deposit or signing up to the agreement, and I try to mitigate that risk and keep the seller on side by arranging the survey and sea trial quickly.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The broker refuses to allow a full survey prior to an offer being accepted (quoted BMF rules).

The boat is 750 miles from me and looks in need of TLC.

I've arranged a surveyor to inspect the boat tomorrow, as if he was a private buyer and report a list of specific issues, plus a general idea of whether the look of the boat is cosmetic or more deep seated.

Now my question is, if I make an offer and it's accepted - subject to survey - pay the broker a depoist and the surveyors report contains things I'm not happy with, can I walk away and have my deposit returned?

If the deposit is non refundable, why cannot I have a full survey 1st?

This is a very good question. I've had arguments with brokers myself about carrying out a survey and seatrial prior to making an offer and, in one case, I walked away from a boat because of it. Frankly, I think it is a stupid position for any seller or broker to take. What is the difference between you inspecting a boat before you make an offer, as, of course, virtually everyone does, and a surveyor doing it for you?
Personally, I don't like having to enter into a contract before survey because you are then committed to various contractual terms. Whether a defect is 'material' or not is open to intepretation. What might be a material deal breaker for the buyer might not appear so for the seller. Imperial One quotes a figure of 5%. Well 4.99% of an expensive boat is a lot of faults and might cause a buyer to want to reject the boat but, theoretically, he can't.
IMHO, if you want a survey before offer, then stick to your position and walk away if they don't agree

 

[mjf]

I have to say that I'm with you on this Deleted User. How can you possibly make an offer without having seen the boat or someone you trust do the inspection first?

Only once the offer is made would I expect to deposit funds - only exception would be if the seller incurred costs somehow that were clearly to my account (as buyer)

 

[Abaker595]

Buying from the right broker

I bought my boat a Campion Allante 595i Sport Cabin from RNB Marine in Puerto Banus and they were fantastic. I looked at several used boats before deciding on the new one in the end and i was given complete freedom of choice with regards to surveys and such prior to purchasing the boat. This is my first boat and i use it in the all year round waters in the med in southern spain, Puerto Banus where RnB Marine are based. They were very accomodating and were always happy to answer my MANY questions i had about the boat and all the aspects surrounding it. Their back team have been great too and kept her clean when im not there.

The point im making is that IF your broker doesnt bend over backwards for you then maybe youre using the wrong broker!

The Sales Director at RnB Marine, Ben Caplan, advised me honestly and professionally from the start and without Ben and the rest of the team i am sure i wouldnt have had as much fun so far with my new toy!!

I know im singing their praises but it is true what they say. It isnt the boat that makes your experience, its the people that look after you. I highly recommend them! www.rnbmarine.com

Thanks RnB Marine!