PSS Shaft Seal problems

[rogerthebodger]

Looking at the pics on your web side of the PSS seals with and without vent connections. The without does not seen to have a reduced diameter for the bellows but the with vent does as the O/D of the worm clips looks a little smaller in diameter than the carbon at the point the the vent pipe is fitted.

The one I have in my hand does have a vent pipe and look almost the same as your pic.

The one fitted to my boat is for a 40mm dia shaft and I don't know currently my stern tube diameter so the one fitted to my boat could be a little different.

In the case of the PSS seal with a vent pipe to have a reduced diameter for the Bellows would be IMHO a better design practice as it would prevent the bellow being fitted too close to the vent pipe.

 

[doug748]

Squeaky - I have sent you a Personal Message

 

[Squeaky]

Good morning:

Rogershaw: I also think there was a botch some where and maybe you should do back to your local supplier.
I think you said this was the second failure if so did the first on fail in the same was and was that also from the same local supplier.
OK marks are not cut marks but you were without doubt supplied the wrong size bellows for the carbon seal and some one tried to botch the job.

Yes, both failures were the same and both seals came from a local chandlery who got them from Deka Marine in Istanbul whom I assume got them from Seaview in France. I sent the 2nd failed unit to France and there was nothing from them to indicate that there was anything unusual with the components but then again I have not felt that they were being completely honest and open with me.

These two units seem to be the only ones to have failed so dramatically or at least no other member has reported anything similar.

Bosun Higgs: I suspect you are correct but what their motivation is I can only guess. Maybe a mixture of American fear of their legal system / claim culture combined with knowledge that some rogue seals had escaped. The Rocna situation again? Head down and hope the problem goes away.

I did not think of the Rocna problems but the fact that no one else has reported this problem before might mean it affects recent production and the failure of PYI and Seaview to be open and frank about the problem makes me wonder if PYI outsourced production to a different manufacture (i.e. China) which resulted in sub-standard components.

Certainly this theory explains why Seaview and PYI are not reacting as one would expect if their hands were lily white.

Cheers

Squeaky

 

[charles_reed]

I'm sure that Squeaky has the best of intentions in raising these fears about PSS seals.

However he does seem very much in minority, perhaps this leads to a slight note of hysteria in his posts. However from my 22 year experience of PSS and their seal I can find no common ground between our experiences and have to wonder if this very edge of desperation exhibited has not resulted in his lack of contact from PYI and Seaview. Many of the claims made about dimensions, shipping etc are, I know, incorrect. But who knows - Turks are a law unto themselves.
There can be no doubt that Squeaky has has a two bad experiences. On balance of probabilities I would suspect that he is complaining about a "copy" of a highly respected product.

 

[Squeaky]

I'm sure that Squeaky has the best of intentions in raising these fears about PSS seals.

However he does seem very much in minority, perhaps this leads to a slight note of hysteria in his posts. However from my 22 year experience of PSS and their seal I can find no common ground between our experiences and have to wonder if this very edge of desperation exhibited has not resulted in his lack of contact from PYI and Seaview. Many of the claims made about dimensions, shipping etc are, I know, incorrect. But who knows - Turks are a law unto themselves.
There can be no doubt that Squeaky has has a two bad experiences. On balance of probabilities I would suspect that he is complaining about a "copy" of a highly respected product.

Good morning Charles:

I am sorry if a slight note of hysteria seems to be creeping into my posts and don't recognize any "edge of desperation" in my approach or attitude.

I have had a lot of contact with PYI and Seaview - it is just that they failed or refused to answer my questions as to why the two seals I received failed so dramatically when others have used these seals for years without any problems. I don't know how to describe their responses except to class them as "misleading", "evasive" and slanted to create "red herrings" so I would go away and not bother them any further. I even sent the seals to France so they could check them to ensure they were original - they did not indicate anything other than they were original items.

I posted the final response I received from Mr Romesburg (PYI) above in an earlier post which surely would best be described as a "go away and don't bother me again" message. I don't know if he really thought I was sending the messages I sent because I had nothing else to do or what but I can assure anyone interested that I simply wanted and still want an explanation as to why these seals failed.

But who knows - Turks are a law unto themselves. Yes, I obtained these seals from the Turkish dealer through a local chandlery but do see how they could be blamed in any way for this situation - Deka Marine sold me what they had been supplied with and later refunded the cost when requested to do so by Seaview. The local chandler discussed this problem with Deka due to language problems but nothing he reported indicated that Deka were at fault in any way.

My concern was never the cash outlay - my concern has always been "Why?" and will it happen to other unsuspecting users of these seals.

Early in the game I suspected that the components were fake but after they received a seal of approval from Seaview (no pun intended) I no longer suspect that although I am now leaning towards believing that PYI outsourced recent production to a new company whose production was not up to scratch. This might well explain PYI's behaviour in refusing to acknowledge that the seals were not as they should have been.

As I have said many times if you are happy and receiving good service from your PSS seal all is well but if you are thinking of buying a new one be very very careful of what you are getting.

Cheers

Squeaky

 

[charles_reed]

<<As I have said many times if you are happy and receiving good service from your PSS seal all is well but if you are thinking of buying a new one be very very careful of what you are getting.>>

I think that sums it up - I'm surprised that PYI aren't taking any action as it is likely that counterfeits (which is what you may have had) evidently have a very bad effect on reputation and future sales.

 

[Tranona]

I think that sums it up - I'm surprised that PYI aren't taking any action as it is likely that counterfeits (which is what you may have had) evidently have a very bad effect on reputation and future sales.

Not sure why you think they are counterfeits. The manufacturer and agent have had them back for inspection and neither seem to have claimed that as a reason for the failure. Surely that is the first thing they would do if that were the case?

Like Squeaky, I find the lack of explanation more worrying than the actual failure.

 

[Squeaky]

Good morning:

Tranona: Like Squeaky, I find the lack of explanation more worrying than the actual failure.

Does it make any sense that a supposedly reputable company producing that is ultimately one of the most important items of safety would not immediately jump on any suggestion that their product was anything but what it was supposed to be and do anything it could to protect their reputation and product??

All my efforts have been to find out why the PSS seals I purchased did not preform as it was supposed to and which was responsible for almost sinking my yacht.

Well, the behavior of PYI doesn't make sense to me which just adds further to my concern about PYI and the PSS seals.

Cheers

Squeaky

 

[macd]

Well, the behavior of PYI doesn't make sense to me which just adds further to my concern about PYI and the PSS seals.

Nor does it make sense to me unless they made a cock-up and are simply hoping it (and you) will go away.

That sleeve still troubles me. I wouldn't sleeve a hose with another piece of hose anywhere on the boat. To me, that's just a botch, even in a static fitting, much more so on something as dynamic and critical as a shaft seal.

Any journos want to ask PSS head office for their take on it?

 

[pcatterall]

Hi Squeaky

I have also had problems trying to get information from PYI
I fitted a PSS seal last year which had a rubber insert acting as a 'reducer' so the bellows would fit the 42mm log
Unfortunately I was not aware of this and the insert was pushed inside the bellows when fitting it to the log, although it didn't cause any problems with the cuff now being oversize for the log
However, with the insert inside the bellows, I could not achieve the 25mm(I think) bellows compression specified for the shaft.
When I discovered the cuff inside the bellows I emailed PYI many times trying to find out what this extra piece was and why it was inside the bellows - like you I had numerous evasive non replies, until I worked it out for myself !

However, FYI, having removed the carbon block to examine the bellows, I can assure you the carbon block had more than adequate length for the 2 x jubilee clips to be fitted.

Not relevant to your problem but this may be of interest to others; my rotor became quite corroded within 6 months and started to leak, again emails to PYI yielded only evasion, denial of any corrosion issues with rotors and blaming a high level of galvanic action. I don't really buy into this as boat is not in a Marina, there is no shore power and nearby boats are all small yachts with minimal electronics - and no one else suffers from any form of galvanic corrosion.
McDuff were much more helpful and identified the corrosion as 'Pitting', or more likely, 'Crevice Corosion', again PYI ignored these possibilities when I sent photos and asked for their opinion.
I reversed the rotor last year and fitted an earth contact to the shaft but again, within 6 months, there was a significant amount of corrosion, PYI again assured me they had never seen anything like it before.
I have now replaced the PSS with a Radice seal which is like the Volvo seal but has a bleed vent which suits me being on a drying mooring, and less than half the price of PSS.

I am not criticising the PSS seal as it clearly can give many years of good service, however, I am very critical of PYI for their ethos of not responding properly to genuine queries, as you have experienced.

Geof

so ‘crevice corrosion’ appears in respect of stern seals again! I had recent reported issues with my TM1 lip seal and a corroded ring on the shaft and am considering replacing the seal with a PSS partly because i feel that i could restore the face of a PSS seal eassier than restorning the groove in my shaft.
It seems in our case to occur when we leave the boat for over a month in our murky sardinian water.
I had wondered ( in a mad moment ) if, with the PSS seal I could force some ‘safe’ liquid down the ‘breather’ tube when leaving the boat for more than a week or so. Perhaps I could put something on the stainless steel surface but suspect that this could have an adverse effect..
I guess in areas ( or types of usage) where crevice corrosion could be special issue then a lip seal or a face seal could both be affected?

 

[john_p_maher]

My shaft seal recently split underneath the second jubilee clip at the carbon end of the seal. The first photo shows the split. The second photo is the seal that it replaced showing the same indentation from the tightened clip but no split. The old seal had been in place for nearly 10 years without issue. The new seal has been on for 2 years but the boat has not left the harbour in that time.

 

[pcatterall]

My shaft seal recently split underneath the second jubilee clip at the carbon end of the seal. The first photo shows the split. The second photo is the seal that it replaced showing the same indentation from the tightened clip but no split. The old seal had been in place for nearly 10 years without issue. The new seal has been on for 2 years but the boat has not left the harbour in that time.

This could have been caused by the seal faces being gummed together when the engine is put in gear and the twisting forces on the bellows causes the split. The fact that the boat has 'not been out of the harbour' since it was fitted supports this. It could also be a 'fake' and inferior replacement.
We always check that the faces are free to rotate by hand if the boat has been unused for any time.

 

[jfkal]

Yes. That is good practice. Can be very binding after even a few weeks

 

[vyv_cox]

Useful photos for the website. May I use one or both please?

 

[rogerthebodger]

My shaft seal recently split underneath the second jubilee clip at the carbon end of the seal. The first photo shows the split. The second photo is the seal that it replaced showing the same indentation from the tightened clip but no split. The old seal had been in place for nearly 10 years without issue. The new seal has been on for 2 years but the boat has not left the harbour in that time.

Looks like there are 2 different types of worm clips on the old and new

The new one looks like this type of clamp

The old one looks like the clamp did not have the slots through the clamp band of had a inner support band

One of the problems when fitting worm clamps can be twisting of the screw holder that could cause the type of damage to the hose as shown

This type of clamp is designed to prevent this

http://www.normagroup.com.au/Listin...NORMACLAMP%AE+TORRO%AE+Worm+Drive+Hose+Clamps

Can you post pics of the clamps so we can see if and what the differences are.

 

[halb]

A failed PSS seal nearly sank my boat whilst I was ashore getting vittles, it cost my insurance co in excess of £25k had a stuffing box fitted as part of the repairs the surveyor mentioned he sees more of these seals failing than any other, stay well clear of them,

 

[vyv_cox]

A failed PSS seal nearly sank my boat whilst I was ashore getting vittles, it cost my insurance co in excess of £25k had a stuffing box fitted as part of the repairs the surveyor mentioned he sees more of these seals failing than any other, stay well clear of them,

How did it fail? There are thousands of these in reliable use. Mine is nearly 10 years old and still working well. Nothing is maintenance free though, occasional inspection is recommended.

 

[john_morris_uk]

How did it fail? There are thousands of these in reliable use. Mine is nearly 10 years old and still working well. Nothing is maintenance free though, occasional inspection is recommended.

Indeed. We are on our second and we’ve had years of trouble free use.

They recommend replacing the bellows every seven years though.