Pros/Cons/Versatility of fractional rigs with self-tacking jibs & Gennaker

[Ric]

An increasing number of modern yachts are being produced with fractional rig, large mainsail, self-tacking jib, and a furling gennaker.

I have never sailed with such a rig, but am looking at maybe purchasing a boat with such a sailplan. The same model also came with a classic masthead rig with smaller main and larger overlapping genoa, so I am looking for advice from people with experience with both rigs.

Clearly the fractional/self tacker rig will be a blast to sail upwind. Off the wind in light winds the gennaker is clearly going to be great. But what do you do in when reaching in winds too strong for the gennaker? The self-tacking jib is not going to be easy to trim off the wind. Also, how about downwind? Is poling out the self-tacker an option?

I am not concerned about the oft mentioned difficulty of heaving too with the self-tacker - I don't heave too often and I can't see the difficulty of popping forward to tie off the sheet.

 

[Tranona]

Get the back number of the back number of the YM test of the Southerly 110/35 of about 5 years ago. As good as you get of the pros and cons as that boat was also available with either rig.

Having just changed to a boat with a main biased fractional rig (although not self tacking, but only 110%) i would not go back. Much easier to handle, goes well upwind, but less good once the wind is aft of the beam. so talking today with Kemps about a furling cruising type chute for next year.

So, if you single hand a lot and do a lot of tacking (as I do at the end of each day sail) then it is the way to go. Strong crew to handle bigger headsails then advantage is less and you get potentially better performance downwind without resorting to a different headsail.

However, buying a used boat, think there are much more important things to consider.

 

[Neeves]

I think it partly depends on the type of sailing you do and as mentioned the crew you have on board. Beating upwind with a small headsail in light winds is not a bundle of laughs. Add in light winds, a lumpy sea and you will certainly wish you had had the larger headsail. If you day sail - its really not an issue but if you are to make longer passages its then merits consideration. Equally short tacks with a big headsail, short handed might not be a bundle of laughs either.

Having a large headsail you can furl is not ideal, in that a furled headsail is never as good as a smaller headsail - but at least you have the choice and its an easy change to make.

Ideally, I suspect, most of us would prefer to sail in 10-20knots, rather than 20-30 knots. The former better suits the large headsail and latter suits the self tacker.

To me the gennaker, spinnaker choice has nothing to do with the 'fixed' headsail - that is simply the choice you make for sailing off the wind. The 'fixed' headsail is a separate issue between a self tackler or overlapping headsail etc.

The ideal is two headsails and/or an inner forestay but few of us have the funds for a yacht with that luxury.

Jonathan

 

[Ric]

Get the back number of the back number of the YM test of the Southerly 110/35 of about 5 years ago. As good as you get of the pros and cons as that boat was also available with either rig.

I've had a good google and searched YM archive but can't find reference to that article - would definitely like a read if I can find it.

 

[Barbican]

There was a used boat test in Feb 2016 in YM, and a new test in 2005. We have a self tacker, and I would happily have one on our next boat its more of a convenience decision for me, although it makes her very close winded, especially with the deep keel and twin rudders. We had no problems on a broad reach with between 28-35 knots apparent, the sail behaved and performed well enough, although I suspect in lighter winds it might not without an outhaul, but then we would use the genoa which is our light wind reaching sail. We also carry a gennaker in a sock, but tend only to use it when there is more than just me and SWMBO. Jib is "Norlam" which might be helping it keep in shape.

 

[ashtead]

Having started to sail with self tracker in past year or so won't go back on basis that you also have a larger head sailer plus some form of genaker to hoist in a sock or karver style fuller. Clearly a big feature will be when and where you sail but the self tackler is great for congested Solent sailing most days with short passages upwind while the larger headsail can be there for down wind with strong winds on headsail alone . If you have electric winches to furl in an out switching between each helming alone is no strain and in also means that most of the time you are not force to use a half furled headsail. On a lot of modern boats with one large headsail these seem designed for lighter winds so you often had to furl but with a small self tracker you don't have this problem so can keep full sail for longer.

 

[alant]

Having started to sail with self tracker in past year or so won't go back on basis that you also have a larger head sailer plus some form of genaker to hoist in a sock or karver style fuller. Clearly a big feature will be when and where you sail but the self tackler is great for congested Solent sailing most days with short passages upwind while the larger headsail can be there for down wind with strong winds on headsail alone . If you have electric winches to furl in an out switching between each helming alone is no strain and in also means that most of the time you are not force to use a half furled headsail. On a lot of modern boats with one large headsail these seem designed for lighter winds so you often had to furl but with a small self tracker you don't have this problem so can keep full sail for longer.

How do you 'heave too', with a self tacker, should you want to put the kettle on & have a rest?

 

[stuey_two]

How do you 'heave too', with a self tacker, should you want to put the kettle on & have a rest?

Tie the clew to the end of the track so that it cannot self-tack - then tack.

 

[Seajet]

I use a ' blade ' high clew working jib most of the time, and in light airs outside the harbour a tri-radial cut chute which can be carried right up to a close reach.

There is another advantage to a high clew blade jib I don't think has been mentioned here but is vital in Chichester Harbour - visibility.

I can't see a thing beyond the original overlapping genoa, so it's unuseable in the harbour and not too clever in the Solent either - it stays in the locker for seasons.

I aim to have a light, high clew genneker on a furler ahead of the forestay next season, with the advantage of being able to deploy quickly for running down channels and onto moorings etc, when I am trying to avoid the engine - or in case of it failing.

Depending on conditions and windage though, if caught out in a real blow I'd probably make efforts to get the genneker off the foil before things became too hectic.

 

[Javelin]

A word on the rig.
Fractional rigs with swept back spreaders require higher static rig loads than a comparable masthead rig.
That's at least 5% to 10% more loading on the cap shrouds and thus on the chain plates and obviously on deck compression if deck stepped.
So with any modern frac rig boat my attention is drawn to how the loads are transferred to the hull, some are lot better than others.
The advantages one way or the other, are in my view negligible. with the pro's and cons weighing themselves out, albeit requiring a different technique and style of sailing.

For example with a masthead rig the jib tends to be the main driving force so a properly designed furling jib on a good quality furler makes short handed sailing a dream and often the main won't even be needed.
On a frac rig the emphasis moves to the main being the primary driver and so systems associated with mainsail control become far more important.

On the few boats I've sailed with self tacking jibs, down wind the jib is next to useless and even the Island Packets with a fixed jib boom it not much better unless you have 20knts true up your chuff.
That said these boats tend to have much larger mains but this means downwind the kicker system needs to work well and a preventer becomes much more of a priority.

As an aside a mast or boom furling main on a frac rig strikes me from a design perspective to be just plain daft, falling into the category of twin wheels and open transoms on a cruising yacht.
It looks fast and cool, ignoring if it actually makes things any better or safer come to that.

 

[Ceirwan]

A word on the rig.
Fractional rigs with swept back spreaders require higher static rig loads than a comparable masthead rig.
That's at least 5% to 10% more loading on the cap shrouds and thus on the chain plates and obviously on deck compression if deck stepped.
So with any modern frac rig boat my attention is drawn to how the loads are transferred to the hull, some are lot better than others.
The advantages one way or the other, are in my view negligible. with the pro's and cons weighing themselves out, albeit requiring a different technique and style of sailing.

For example with a masthead rig the jib tends to be the main driving force so a properly designed furling jib on a good quality furler makes short handed sailing a dream and often the main won't even be needed.
On a frac rig the emphasis moves to the main being the primary driver and so systems associated with mainsail control become far more important.

On the few boats I've sailed with self tacking jibs, down wind the jib is next to useless and even the Island Packets with a fixed jib boom it not much better unless you have 20knts true up your chuff.
That said these boats tend to have much larger mains but this means downwind the kicker system needs to work well and a preventer becomes much more of a priority.

As an aside a mast or boom furling main on a frac rig strikes me from a design perspective to be just plain daft, falling into the category of twin wheels and open transoms on a cruising yacht.
It looks fast and cool, ignoring if it actually makes things any better or safer come to that.

My experience has been the opposite of yours.

I've gone from a masthead Sadler 25 with a huge 155% Genoa to an MGC 27 with big fractional rig , fully battened main and self tacking jib as standard.
Though I actually end to sail with the No3 blade rather than the self tacker as I prefer the greater trimming opportunities, the rig on the whole is night and day better than the masthead on the Sadler.

Off the wind I have a big driving main, especially when sailing deep where the Genoa is never really happy, I always have plenty of power, when I have to reef down I can leave the Genoa alone until I have 2 reefs in the main, meaning that it sets better.
I can tack the jib without any grinding, and unlike a big overlapper, its not catching on everything every tack.

The only downside I've found is its hard work getting the main tied down single handed, but lazy jacks would solve this problem.

 

[alant]

Tie the clew to the end of the track so that it cannot self-tack - then tack.

What, go forward of the companionway?

 

[Ian_Edwards]

Another vote for a main and self tacker.
My Southerly is a fractional rig with a self tacking jib, although the main and the gib are more or less the same size, because the jib is a deck hugger and the boom is quite high off the deck. Sailing to windward, single or short handed is very easy, just put the helm down to tack, nothing more to do.
As the breeze builds I reef the main and keep full jib until there is too much wind for the second reef, then I'll often just drop the main, the boat will sail to windward very will under just the jib until around 30 knots of wind speed.
Off the wind I need to put a second sheet on the jib and take it to a block on the rail to give the jib a decent shape, and I have two sheeting points on each gunwall to which I can attach snatch blocks.
If wind isn't too strong I set an Asymmetric on a top down furling system which gives me plenty of drive down wind.
Having grown up on boats with big genoas, not having to grind the genoa in on every tack makes sailing much easier.

 

[[3889]]

What, go forward of the companionway?

�� I'm surprised how many recent DS see that as an emergency action, akin to an unplanned space walk.
If you enjoy sailing, avoid self-tackers, if you enjoy cocktails and nibbles, go for it.

 

[alant]

�� I'm surprised how many recent DS see that as an emergency action, akin to an unplanned space walk.
If you enjoy sailing, avoid self-tackers, if you enjoy cocktails and nibbles, go for it.

Hardly a recent DS.
Skippers never, never, go forward, that is the Crew's job, so management can supervise from a distance.

 

[Daydream believer]

�� I'm surprised how many recent DS see that as an emergency action, akin to an unplanned space walk.
If you enjoy sailing, avoid self-tackers, if you enjoy cocktails and nibbles, go for it.

I disagree .I enjoy sailing & my hanse it is a real "tweakers " boat. With a choice of up to 25 different control lines with different sail configurations in the cockpit there is plenty to do & I sail 90% single handed.
If i want i can change to a genoa or use a cruising chute for long off wind legs. In heavier winds I do not have to have a baggy part furled genoa up front but a very nice laminate self tacking jib.
No way would I change back to a boat without a self tacking jib. It is faster up wind than many boats once the wind hits 8 knts or more ( but that is really due to Hanse design), points higher & coupled with a good quality main the boat does not miss the genoa at all. Careful use of downhauls help when off the wind. One just has to adjust ones set up to the rig.

As for heaving too I admit that is a problem. The Hanse is a boat that will not heave too - Just look on the Hanse forum & read the debates & you will see that experienced sailors agree it cannot be relied on to heave too properly & safely. So sail balance does put the mast in a position that spoils this aspect of sailing

 

[[3889]]

Hardly a recent DS.
.

I know that. Assumed you were being ironic plus my smiley failed to display. Nevertheless, my comment stands judging by the looks of horror when I have suggested a trip forward outside the confines of a marina.

 

[Javelin]

There is no reason you cant use a smaller jib on a masthead rig.
My old genoa was a 150%
The new one this year I had made at 125% and is much easier with little difference in speed except for dead downwind when boomed out.
I also have a non overlapping jib which I guess I could set up as a self tacker although with this new jib having two designed reef points I cant see me having to use much any more.

Off the wind in up to 20knts I tend to put the kite up anyway.

Point being just because you have a masthead rig does not mean you have to have a large overlapping genoa.

 

[johnalison]

There is no reason you cant use a smaller jib on a masthead rig.
My old genoa was a 150%
The new one this year I had made at 125% and is much easier with little difference in speed except for dead downwind when boomed out.
I also have a non overlapping jib which I guess I could set up as a self tacker although with this new jib having two designed reef points I cant see me having to use much any more.

Off the wind in up to 20knts I tend to put the kite up anyway.

Point being just because you have a masthead rig does not mean you have to have a large overlapping genoa.

A masthead rig is not ideal, as shown by the model yacht enthusiasts 80 yrs ago, and using a smaller jib reduces the efficiency even more. However, a masthead rig keeps the centre of effort low and makes for a handy cruising rig. If I were out in a blow, I would as rather be in something like an HR 36 as anything else, but with modern mainsail equipment, a fractional rig makes for a more efficient cruising set-up.

I've done most of my cruising with a masthead rig, but my current 19/20 rig is actually much handier, with a 110% jib, though short tacking is not very enjoyable. Recently, we did 18 changes of tack just coming put of the Orwell, and that was as much or more than I could be bothered, and a self-tacking jib would have been a godsend. On the other hand, I don't expect to go about more than a few times in a day's sailing, so that the loss of overlap would be a great disadvantage to me. If my mooring were up the top of the Tamar or Orwell I might feel differently, but it's horses for courses as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Tranona]

As an aside a mast or boom furling main on a frac rig strikes me from a design perspective to be just plain daft, falling into the category of twin wheels and open transoms on a cruising yacht.
It looks fast and cool, ignoring if it actually makes things any better or safer come to that.

Not sure of the reasoning behind that comment. Fractional rigs with in mast mains are pretty much standard equipment on many new boats - for obvious reasons. Can't see what the drawback is.

My experience of owning two such boats, and particularly the latest one is that the ease with which you can make small adjustments to mainsail area without reducing the jib improves windward performance when getting near the limit. Much easier to balance the sailplan with this rig.

Twin wheels are a necessity on many modern designs and most boats that use twin wheels are better for it. You might object to the wide sterns that necessitate twin wheels, but once the designer has chosen that route, it is inevitable. Open transoms are on the wane as wide sterns allow much more freedom to fit such things as transom gates, drop down transoms and/or storage lockers.