Proof of ownership, Spanish boat register?

[A_8]

I am looking into buying a boat in Spain and have found that some owners are not that concerned with a clean trail of Bill of sale's. I've been told that the title documents needs to be in order as part of getting the boat registered in the Spanish boat registry hence original bill of sale from previous owners are not necessary if there is a registry document.

I've noticed Swedish and UK recreational boat registries explicitly state they are not proof of legal ownership but the Spanish don't, the Spanish also include purchase prices and any other changes to the boats status.

Anyone know how this works is Spain?

Thanks/Michael

 

[Steve Clayton]

Try these guys - they ensured that we were all above board and legal for our charter activity

http://www.aitamar.com/diseño-de-yates.aspx

and note this:
http://www.aitamar.com/venta-de-yates.aspx

 

[Hurricane]

Hopefully Elessar will see this thread.
I was with him when he was buying his boat from Spain and this exact problem came up.
It seems that he was able to get more information than you but it would be worth having a conversation with him.

So, if he doesn't see this, PM Elessar - I'm sure he will help.

 

[A_8]

Thanks both, hopefully Elassar will join the thread. I seem to remeber these issues have been on the forum before but can't find it using search. There is a related issue regarding VAT which the broker claim is deemed to have been paid if the boat is registered to a person and not a business. I am not sure that is good enough for any other tax authority in the EU but maybe it is. When trying the search I found this response in another thread from Tranona:

VAT and registration are largely unconnected.

VAT is complicated, but essentially if you buy a used boat from a private EU citizen then it is unlikely that VAT has not been paid correctly - and in many countries (such as Spain) the registration papers will confirm that. However boats can be registered in EU countries and not have VAT paid on them - for example owned by a VAT registered entity and used in business or kept outside the EU. VAT then becomes payable if the boat is imported into the EU or sold to a private individual. However a non EU resident can keep a boat in the EU without paying VAT on a temporary basis. A non EU resident can also own a boat in the EU that has had VAT paid on it, and subsequently sell it without any further VAT liability. However, if any boat that has had VAT paid on it (or deemed VAT paid based on age) leaves the EU it may then become liable for the tax if it is subsequently re-imported.

That is just examples of common simple scenarios and there are other more obscure situations so you have to assess each individual situation on the facts surrounding the boat and the individual.

Perhaps Tranona can elaborate on the validity of a registry document in Spain with respect to legal ownership and VAT status?

/Michael

 

[kashurst]

The registration of a boat in Spain is based on where in the world the owner resides. If its in Spain (full time) it has to be Spanish registered. If the owner is UK based then it can be UK registered etc.

If the boat is Spanish registered - then the documentation is usually very good. the Spanish registry keeps a track of all changes of owner ship and all sales including prices and transfer taxes. This will be provided with the boat and is perfect for proving ownership and tax status - I wish the UK registry (so called) was as useful. If the present owners don't have the documentation, copies can be obtained from the registry. Just bear in mind when you buy a Spanish registered boat there is a tax to pay based on the sale price, however the good news is that the tax amount to be paid comes from a little table of guidance so its usually a fair bit less than you might expect (thats Spain).

If the boat is British registered then the best clue to ownership is bill of sale(s) going back preferably 5 years or more. You want a VAT receipt, a builders certificate and the boat should have a CE rating plate somewhere on it if its fairly recent build ( I think less than 10 years old). If you want to then register a UK titled boat in Spain this should be good enough evidence to get the boat Spanish listed.

 

[A_8]

Good info, kashurst! The boat was owned by a Spanish resident and Spain registered up until last year, it was then purchased by a British and kept in Spain. The registry papers show it was owned by the Spaniard and then exported and is now UK registered. I have the registry documents and the last bill of sale, so far so good.
The boat was originally sold new in France but the current owner do not have the first bill of sale. The broker is making the argument that I don't need to worry about the first owners title documents or proof of VAT as it would have to be in order for the boat to enter the Spanish registry. Is he right?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The broker is making the argument that I don't need to worry about the first owners title documents or proof of VAT as it would have to be in order for the boat to enter the Spanish registry. Is he right?

Maybe so but its not an argument I would accept. Firstly, whilst VAT checks are not common (yet), you never know when a customs official will ask you to prove the VAT status of your boat so better to have the document than not. Second you have to think about what a buyer might ask for when you sell the boat and if that buyer is like me, he won't buy the boat unless you can present at least 5yrs of title documents, original VAT invoice and CE/HIN certificate. Certainly if the next buyer wants to register the boat in the UK and he will need to do that if he wants a mortgage on it, he will need at least 5yrs title documents and CE/HIN document. I have bought a number of boats in the Med and my attitude is that there are plenty of boats for sale with correct documentation to bother about any without them. The broker is just being lazy; tell him to get the documents or there's no sale

 

[kashurst]

In answer to A_8, yes I think the broker is correct because the spanish docs should show all the tax payments made for that boat, and its an official stamped (notarised?) document. I don't believe the Spaniards would register it without the vat being paid either. In the current economic climate the Spanish are looking for any source of tax. I got boarded last summer and was asked for everything, ownership, VAT the lot. But its still worth taking Deleted User's line to make the broker earn his money. You still need the CE marking and the builders certificate I think. If you like this boat contact a spanish lawyer that is knowledgable in Spanish marine law and get what the broker said and the existing paperwork verified.

 

[Tranona]

Just a couple of observations. A VAT invoice has far more importance in the UK because it is the only document that records the payment if the transaction takes place in the UK. However it is less significant in Spain because unlike the UK registration requires evidence that the tax has been paid. Therefore as VAT issues are the responsibility of the state where the transaction took place, other states would accept the Spanish document. The sale to a UK resident has no impact on the VAT status. It would only change if the boat left the EU.

 

[Hurricane]

because unlike the UK registration requires evidence that the tax has been paid.

I didn't think that was the case.
I thought that the UK register was just that - a register.

I know you are far more knowledgeable than me but that statement doesn't sound correct.

 

[Tranona]

Lynn Truss (of Eats shoots and leaves) will get me for omitting a comma so making it ambiguous. I meant that the UK register does not require evidence of VAT. The Spanish register performs a different function as it is an official record of ownership and tax paid related to the boat.

As the boat was originally sold in France, that is where (probably) VAT was paid and recorded and the Spanish register would have accepted that as evidence.

The OP needs to ensure the paper trail for all transactions is sound in accordance with the requirements in each state. Broker should do this.

 

[A_8]

I think I've got the ins and outs of this now.
Thanks all for your input!

 

[Elessar]

Hopefully Elessar will see this thread.
I was with him when he was buying his boat from Spain and this exact problem came up.
It seems that he was able to get more information than you but it would be worth having a conversation with him.

So, if he doesn't see this, PM Elessar - I'm sure he will help.

yep most of the paperwork had been lost on my boat but the spanish registry is great. It lists every substantive change to the boat, eg names, owners and states that it is IVA (vat) paid. It's like our old style car log books.

As my boat was more than 10 years old, and had been in spain for more than 10 years, it's enough to obtain part 1 registry here.

Get the broker to have it translated, and get a British bill of sale.

 

[Elessar]

I didn't think that was the case.
I thought that the UK register was just that - a register.

I know you are far more knowledgeable than me but that statement doesn't sound correct.

for part 3 you need nothing, for part 1 you have to prove title for 10 years. No relevance as you say to VAT status.

 

[Hurricane]

Some great advice from these forums.
It seems that we (as a group) get more knowledgeable as time goes by.
I'm sure that between us all we know more than most professionals.

 

[A_8]

Some great advice from these forums.
It seems that we (as a group) get more knowledgeable as time goes by.
I'm sure that between us all we know more than most professionals.

Indeed, its quite impressive at times.

 

[scubaman]

Nothing to add re the vat, but I take it you've found a buyer then? Congrats.

Another jeanneau in the pipeline?

 

[A_8]

Nothing to add re the vat, but I take it you've found a buyer then? Congrats.

Another jeanneau in the pipeline?

I am still a bit early into this and have not decided yet.