Problem with new Lofrans 1000 install

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PembrokeshirePromise

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Just bolted this all in at the w/e (note new winch)

Connected up the cables today. Fed in the chain.

Up and down work - but only briefly - c 10 seconds or so /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Then sounds like the solenoid is clicking in and out a few times - then fuse blows on switch line (5 amp) and solenoid cables get slightly warm

Testing on a new battery reading c. 12.5v - engine not running as on the hard at the mo

Seems to me the winch might be running a bit slowly (especially in down mode) - but as I've never seen it working I don't know what to expect

Seems to me I must have wired everything up OK - as it works - all be it briefly

Running slow would suggest not enough power - but all connections look good

What I don't understand is why the solenoid fuse blows - electrician suggested that that would be symptomatic of a solenoid coil that was failing - perhaps shorting out part way through the coil - hence voltage dropping and its drawing more current ??

Before I unbolt it and send the whole thing back (grr) - I've put the battery on charge to be double sure and I'll give it one more go.

Theres no chance that 12.5 volts is on the edge of closing the solenoid - and so as power is drawn from the battery it starts to "flutter" - clutching at straws really here ...

Anything I'm missing ?

Thanks
James
 
Have you checked the voltage while operating? Without the engine running you're going to have a big voltage drop. 1000 watts is about 80 amps.
 
had the same with my lofrans it takes HUGE amount of power killed two batteries while on the hard putting the 50 metres of chain in you need to have massive power to use engine must be running!
 
Hmm - well the voltage drop is considerable - it drops below 12 volts

But just tried with a new fresh battery - and still the same - briefly - and then nothing. Now just getting a click from the down solenoid - nothing from the up and no more motor wither up or down /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif Could take it apart - but as its brand new don't feel inclined - guess I need to phone suppliers up tomorrow and ship the whole lot back

If it had drained the battery loading 50m I would have accpeted it - but I don't think it managed 5 feet !

This is on a new Red flash battery bought from Merlin along with an echo charge specifically to do this job on their advice. They normally know what they are talking about - and the echo charge is running - so theoretically could be supplying 15amps - admittedly not the same as the engine.

I've got the same battery starting my engine - and I'd expect it to turn for more than few seconds on that (with the old volvo it used to be minutes in 30 second bursts on a cold day /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

On a more positive note at least I'm getting quicker at mounting it /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
Are you using a Lofrans solenoid/relay? I had a similar problem (though after about three years use) and discovered that the solenoid was sticking.

They are very easy to take apart and check. I found that the heavy copper bar which connects the two positives together when the solenoid was activated had a couple of 'nibs' at the ends which occasionally caused it to jam, preventing full contact.

I removed it, filed it down a touch, reassembled everything with a touch of grease on the centre pin and it's been fine ever since - about eight years.

I doubt very much that you have a problem with the windlass itself. These are well made and very reliable units, so it's likely to be either the solenoid, a bad connection somewhere or, as others have suggested, insufficient amperage. The 1000w draws up 90 amps under load and, whilst yours isn't under much load (e.g. as when pulling the anchor out) it will still be pulling a substantial load.

I agree with others that ideally, the engine should be running, though I would have expected a fully charged battery in TOP condition to have handled modest loads perfectly well over a short period.

I suspect therefore that the problem lies either with the solenoid (relay) or a bad connection.
 
Hi

The 1000 project has a built in solenoid relay in the motor housing - so yes I am using it - but its also why I'm a bit loath to take it apart as its brand new - in case it causes (more?) arguments down the line.

The windlass bit (above deck) is fine - its the motor/gearbox/solenoids bit thats giving the problem.

I don't really understand why the solenoid wires were getting hot - they only have a 5 amp fuse - and surely require minimal current to close

I'm also a bit worried that now I don't seem to be getting any motor running at all and no click from the up solenoid - things seem to be getting worse !

The battery is suppose to have a CCA capacity of 7-800amps for about 30 seconds. I don't think I got 10 seconds !
 
Suggest you speak with Lofrans, or their UK man who lives ?near Bristol. When I fitted mine, he personally came an sorted out a problem with it.
I always have to run the engine when using the beast, and I have a battery capacity of 255AH on that side of the boat. That is now always used, after it stopped when hoisting me up the mast 1/2 way up, and my wife needed shouted instructions to rectify the situation!!
 
Don't suppose you have a contact number ?

Well - had the back off - and I've got a load of melted wires feeding the solenoids - so that explains why it doesn't work !

I could probably replace the wiring OK - but seeing as it was fused with 5 amp - I don't really understand why this happened. And more to the point - I suspect there must be an underlying problem in the first place that needs resolving (how does a solenoid draw enough current on the control wire to catch fire ?)

As this is a new winch I do wonder if there is a chance that soemthing was wired wrong internally (or shorting) from go. Its litterally run for about 10 seconds !

I've triple checked all the connections I've made - and can't see anything wrong - its not particulalry complicated /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif - or at least I didn't think it was
 
>> The 1000 project has a built in solenoid relay in the motor housing - so yes I am using it - but its also why I'm a bit loath to take it apart as its brand new - in case it causes (more?) arguments down the line. <<

That's a new one to me. What model Lofrans is it? I've fitted four or five Lofrans (to different boats and my own) over the years and they have always had a separate solenoid/relay.

This seems logical to me, as it allows the relay to be fitted remotely (perhaps more conveniently) and well away from the risk of salt water damage. Certainly your battery set-up appears perfectly adequate for the short test you were carrying out. The wiring getting warm is very strange and I agree that with a 5 amp fuse that shouldn't happens unless the wire section is very small. As I mentioned in my earlier post, it might be worth checking that the connections really are perfect.

I agree with the other poster - perhaps seeking some help directly from Lofrans is the best route as at least your guarantee is then secure.

Please let us know the outcome - a friend of mine is considering fitting a Lofrans to his boat and has asked me to help him!! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Hi Jerry,

Thanks - I'm using:

http://www.lofrans.it/english/SALPAANCORE/project1000.html - the low profile version - not that that will make any difference.

The solenoids are housed under the silver metal casing which is held on by 4 screws and the cap slides off an O ring seal (nice touch ...)

Several of the wires feeding the solenoid are melted. It doesn't look complicated - and if it wasn't new I'd certainly have a go at replacing them - though as I said I'm concerned as to the underlying cause. Hopefully the motor itself is fine - what I can see of it looks OK.

It looks as if the cause may have been the -ve of the solenoid power line (seems most melted !) - some of the wires are routed quite tightly round the metal casing - and I wonder if somehow there could have been a short meaning that the windlass was trying to power itself down the solenoid -ve - at least partially. I'm probably speaking rubbish at this point - but unless someone can tell me how I can have had it wired up so badly wrong to cause this - I'm left suspecting an internal fault.

I've emailed Lofrans direct - and am awaiting a call back from the lot I bought it from.

Of course tha pain is we lift in in a week - it was the last job ... (well almost /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Are you sure that a Red Flash battery is right for a windlass? My recollection is that the Red Flash is a HIGH Current LOW capacity battery which is ideal for engine starting. In actual operation , a windlass can take over 60amps for 5 or 10minutes which is not the usual engine cranking situation and could well be 1/4 of the Red Flash battery capacity. Basically , the engine needs to be running to give the battery a reasonable chance. I'd be interested to know the Red Flash specification.
 
It sounds like you've been powering the motor directly through the up/down switches - a 5A fuse will pass a lot more than 5A for a few seconds before it blows (2 or 3 x for automotive fuses).
When you say the "solenoid negative supply" do you mean the wire that goes to the 'C' terminal on the control box?

(I'm looking at page 6 of the instructions here)

Andy
 
Hi,

The battery is:
http://www.power-store.com/?id=214

I think its the 1200 (44 amp Hrs) - it was sold to me by Merlin specifically to run a 1000W windlass - so I hope its OK.

I think the red flash type are needed for the high current draw. If you assume half of the battery capacity is useable (i.e. 22 amps) - then the windlass will use 83 amps running at max loadish - so if you ran it at max for 10 minutes that would be about 14 amp hrs used. I did question it but they reckoned it was about right - though I have been wondering if I shouldn't have just ignored them and run cables ....

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the battery size - surely that can't be the cause of melting the solenoid wires though - and thats where the basic problem lies

I've tested the motor on the bench using the emergency override connection - and that still seems fine fortunately - and maybe is running at a more realistic speed - though difficult to judge really
 
Hi Andy,

Yes - thats exaclty what I mean - and what I've been suspecting - and yes I do mean the C terminal (though the UK manual is slightly different - numbers control wires 1-5 and I'm talking about 4)

That would explain to me why:
a) The winch seemed to be struggling with very little load (3m of chain ?)
b) the wires have fried

What I don't understand is how that can have been happening (at the risk of stating the obvious I did have great heavy starter cable connected to +/- studs as well !) - Unless something was badly wired inside - but may not be that easy to tell now !

The motor seems to work fine using the Emergeny stud - the 3rd heavy duty stud in the photo - (short to +) and the heavy duty +/- with nothing else connected - so the problem is definitley in the solenoid bits somewhere

I suppose what I really want to know is that there isn't anything really stupid I could have done to cause this is there?

Thanks for looking
James
 
We've got a Lofrans 1000, but the instructions are on the boat.

I'm a bit confused about the "emergency override" - Ours is an older model, and all 3 of the studs on the motor are permanently connected (1 to heavy -ve cable, and 2 to control box).

Is yours a two terminal or three terminal motor ? (If your wiring diagram is different to these, then ignore me).

Andy
 
It shouldn't be the cause of your problem, but I'm a bit confused with your battery selection. The instructions for my Lofrans Kobra 1000w, tell me I need a battery in the region of 120AH!
 
wiring.jpg


This is my wiring diagram - and as I understand it there is an optional install of a heavy duty switch which bypasses the solenoid up/down control for emergency use (e.g. if your solenoids have packed up or your wiring has fried !)

I think what may have changed is that the control box is now effectively built in - so the stud you connected to the control box is now just there for emergency use (mind you maybe I should just buy one and wire it in bypassing the internal stuff - that would work - but rather defeats the object !)
 
As I had it explained to me - on a conventional battery you need one of that size to get sufficent CCA output (as its proportional to size).

But with these red flash batteries etc they can produce the higher CCA needed on lower capacity batteries (though you may be right and it might be on the small side) - but I'll address that when the blooming winch works !

After all it is just a glorified starter motor isn't it

And unless someone can explain to me how an undersized battery has fried the wiring - and no one has so far ...
 
There is an error in the diagram I think. The positive fused wire should go to pin 2 of the motor (via pin 1-6), but without the drawing of what's inside (exactly) I can't see what it would do.
 
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