Princess P45 2003

[J12345T]

Hello to you All,

I am new to both this Forum and to boat ownership and was hoping to tap into the vast knowledge base to answer what I hope won't be too stupid a question. Although I have been around displacement launches and fizz boats for most of my life (parents own a classic 1939 bridgedecker) I am new to large'ish planing launches.

I am in the final stages of purchasing a 2003 Princess P45. I took her out for a sea trial yesterday and found that the 'ride' had a lot of forward/aft movement over a smallish chop; akin to riding a horse. As I said my experience to date has almost exclusively been in slower displacement launches and 8-9m runabout boats. Although I was expecting it to feel different I wasn't expecting it to feel quite like that. My question is; is this normal for a 45' planing launch at 20+ kts?

Also, at certain rpm's there was a low frequency vibration that could be felt through 'the seat of your pants'. The engineer explained this to me as the engines being a little out of sync however, it didn't sound of feel like that to me. It felt more like a harmonic? Again is this 'normal' for this type of boat?

Many thanks,

JT

 

[kashurst]

Hi, the ride motion you describe is normal for planing boats at speed. they tend to travel on top of the waves rather than through them. The Princess 45 is well regarded so what you experienced is normal. The ride quality also depends on the wind and wave direction relative to the boat and how well the boat is trimmed and loaded with fuel and water and the boats speed. You can change the ride quality a lot just by changing speed to suit conditions. Planning boats do work quite well in displacement mode too if its calm (< F3 ish) - but the main point of a planning boat it to get places quickly (and get out of/away from poor conditions) the throbbing/vibration sensation you could feel is almost certainly the engines out of sync. just adjust the throttles to cancel the beat frequency.

 

[volvopaul]

Hello to you All,

I am new to both this Forum and to boat ownership and was hoping to tap into the vast knowledge base to answer what I hope won't be too stupid a question. Although I have been around displacement launches and fizz boats for most of my life (parents own a classic 1939 bridgedecker) I am new to large'ish planing launches.

I am in the final stages of purchasing a 2003 Princess P45. I took her out for a sea trial yesterday and found that the 'ride' had a lot of forward/aft movement over a smallish chop; akin to riding a horse. As I said my experience to date has almost exclusively been in slower displacement launches and 8-9m runabout boats. Although I was expecting it to feel different I wasn't expecting it to feel quite like that. My question is; is this normal for a 45' planing launch at 20+ kts?

Also, at certain rpm's there was a low frequency vibration that could be felt through 'the seat of your pants'. The engineer explained this to me as the engines being a little out of sync however, it didn't sound of feel like that to me. It felt more like a harmonic? Again is this 'normal' for this type of boat?

Many thanks,

JT

I would have thought that boat had Volvo 74 or 75 edc engines in, if true then why didnt the skipper or engineer press the sync button on the edc keypad to equalize the engine speed, thats what its there for! Did you ahve a survey? both structural and by independant volvo engineer?.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

for the vibration I would not beleive what the engineer says check cutlass bearings, shaft alignments, or propellers. This last can be eighter they are dirty or one of the props hit something or is suffering electorlysis.
for the wave motion did you put the tabs down...
Princess 45s of the age tend to ride a bit bow high even with tabs down
I dont know if you still purchased or not the boat, but if you did get an independant surveyor

 

[J12345T]

Thanks for your replies,

Yes I had both an independent surveyor and engineer on board and we hauled to boat for the hull inspection. It all looked perfect having just had new antifoul and propspeed applied.

Re the ride; I now think it is probably a very small amount of 'porpoising' with the fore/aft movement being an increase and decrease in the drag from the wetted area. This video from the Princess site kind of shows what I am talking about. Look for the people (chicks) standing up:-

http://www.princessyachts.com/index.html#/en/flybridge/P42/movie

This is obviously 'normal' for the Princess boats.?.

Re the vibes; the boat is fitted with twin 420hp 6 cylinder CAT's so no auto sync (specified by the original owner as Volvo aren't that big on this side of the world). The props looked perfect. My feeling is that if it was bent shafts or misalignment then the vibes would be there all the time and get worse with increasing rpm's. It didn't feel like a sync problem as I could hear that the engines were in sync but still giving a low freq vibe at ~1800 rpm. At 2100 rpm and 21kts it was smooth even with the engines out of sync.

Given that I'm not going to get the chance to see her again before I have to decide; your thoughts are appreciated.

JT.

 

[jfm]

the 'ride' had a lot of forward/aft movement over a smallish chop; akin to riding a horse.

Hi and welcome. If you mean the boat was oscillating I would say that isn't normal. Unless the waves were big enough to cause the motion then the boat should sit still. It may not be a fault with the boat - it could be that the tabs should be lowered as others have said

It's hard to comment on a vibration without being there. It depends whether it was harmonic or non harmonic vibration. If it was a harmonic then changing the engine speed and synching them should cure it as VP said. If it was a non-harmonic vibration then check props, shafts, etc as PY said, because something could be bent or broken.

 

[jfm]

Thanks for your replies,

Yes I had both an independent surveyor and engineer on board and we hauled to boat for the hull inspection. It all looked perfect having just had new antifoul and propspeed applied.

Re the ride; I now think it is probably a very small amount of 'porpoising' with the fore/aft movement being an increase and decrease in the drag from the wetted area. This video from the Princess site kind of shows what I am talking about. Look for the people (chicks) standing up:-

http://www.princessyachts.com/index.html#/en/flybridge/P42/movie

This is obviously 'normal' for the Princess boats.?.

Re the vibes; the boat is fitted with twin 420hp 6 cylinder CAT's so no auto sync (specified by the original owner as Volvo aren't that big on this side of the world). The props looked perfect. My feeling is that if it was bent shafts or misalignment then the vibes would be there all the time and get worse with increasing rpm's. It didn't feel like a sync problem as I could hear that the engines were in sync but still giving a low freq vibe at ~1800 rpm. At 2100 rpm and 21kts it was smooth even with the engines out of sync.

Given that I'm not going to get the chance to see her again before I have to decide; your thoughts are appreciated.

JT.

I'd say the 42 in that video was not porpoising, and was running steady exactly how she should,. With the possible exception of the bit right in the middle, girl in red swimsuit on the foredeck cushions, and the girl close up on the flybridge 3/4 through, but if that's what you experienced the tabs will cure it.

The vibration sounds like a harmonic caused by the Cats/P45 combo and not a problem - you just have to decide whether you can live with it!

 

[Latestarter1]

CAT

Before you consider CAT 3126 motors take a look on http://boatdiesel.com/Forums/main. Even post a request for views on the motor.

 

[Hurricane]

If its a Princess owner you want to talk to - maybe I can help.

As for your problems, I cant comment - never had anything like that on our P67.
But she is much bigger and heavier - totally different.

We had a Sealine T51 before which is more like the P45 but still quite a lot bigger.

IMO, the smaller flybridges (whatever builder) porpose a bit anyway.
Are you sure it wasnt just the speed was wrong for the sea conditions?

As far as vibration is concerned, in these planing boats we all get considerable vibration if the props are even slightly dirty so it could be missallignment or something round a prop?

 

[yankee1]

P45

Another Princess owner (P42) checking in. I have been in a lot of boats over the years and never had a ride I have liked as much as the Princess hull. I am in the Solent all the time which is always a bit of a mess and never noticed any unusual porpoising. Trim it right and she goes through it like a knife.

I would be more concerned about the vibration as that could be something simple like trim or engine synch, or something really horrible. Don't think I would buy it unless I understood the cause.

Assuming it came up in the survey the owner should be made to fix it to your satisfaction, If no one can find a cause, then as JFM said, you'll either have to decide to live with it or move on.

Good luck, they're great boats.

 

[J12345T]

Thanks again for such speedy and informative replies.

I've just been reading with horror the posts regarding the CAT 3196 engines which are fitted to this boat. They're under class action for inter (after) cooler failures leading to complete engine failures and even engines breaking free of their mounts!!! ****.

Anyone have any views or experience with this problem?

Cheers,

JT.

 

[AndieMac]

As the others have said, the hull is good, tried and tested, and we are seeing a number of these fine craft in this country.

Looking at your Volvo comment, we may even share the same hemisphere

At a guess, the sea trial conditions may have had an element of a confused state. Meaning if you were heading, say due east with some residue waves for example, from the N.E. crossing over a N.W. that was blowing on the day, the effect you described will be felt, although not necessarily highly visible.

 

[Latestarter1]

CAT

I think you are a little confused. 3196 is their 12 liter motor which is still dragging through the courts, mainly due to alleged cover up of defective Modine manufactured sea water aftercoolers.

Suspect your vessel has little CAT 3126 motors. 3126 also has a very colorful history. Much has been posted around the world on the motor. You´ll find many happy owners out there that have no issues others have not been so lucky. In U.S. having 3126 on the spec sheet tends to hurt resale value.

You have to make you own decision on which way to go, but realize that this engine, even if it´s one that survives normal wear & tear and gives 3000-5000 hours of decent service over 10 years or so, it´s an expensive engine to work on.

Just to change the front belt requires removing the front torsional damper, and that alone can be major task depending on access.. To adjust the top end requires a special $2500 tool so you are generally you have to pay the price of sticking to CAT service network.

 

[J12345T]

Thanks for clearing that up. It must be a misprint on the spec sheet.

Would you say that the 3126's are any worse than the equivalent Cummins or Yanmas? And with that said which engines would you say would be 'the pick of the bunch'?


Cheers,

JT.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

you want find a Princess 45 with Cummins or Yanmars unless repowered...
all are powered with Volvos and some expections with Cats to my knowledge

as for the ride I can only imagine it this way with large swells tidish sea, then the usually wind created chop
if it is short and high even with tabs down you will get that sort of ride...
I was travelling with a Fairline 43 a couple years back and this is quite common in the Ionian sea, and they told me they had this kind of ride with all the family vomiting once in the marina....

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Princesses don't porpoise. What you are seeing is just natural movement over waves and swell. Princess is a well regarded manufacturer and the P45 is a fine boat and provided she is good order, she should be a good buy. I have had Cat 3126 engines in a previous boat. These engines with the 3116 model were the first in line 6 cylinder engines produced by Cat for the leisure boat market. I do know that many of them had valve problems early on in their lives but this is a known fault and should have been fixed under warranty by a Cat dealer. Ask whoever is selling this boat if they have any documentation confirming whether any work was done. If the work has been done and they are in good order otherwise, you should be fine but make sure you get a Cat engineer to check the engines out
Agree with Latestarter1. Even if there are no problems with the engines, a P45 fitted with these engines should be under average market price for a number of reasons. First, there have been known problems as I mentioned above. Second, Volvos are far more common on this model, at least in Europe, although possibly not in your part of the world. Third, AFAIK, they were the least powerful engine option in the P45. Other P45s had Volvo engines giving 430, 480 and 500hp

 

[J12345T]

CAT 3126

Thanks Deleted User and All,

Having read a lot about these engines over the last few days it seems that there are known issues of:-

1. Valve problems,
2. Injector sleeve problems,
3. Soft blocks which were manufactured in France.

What I don't know is are all 3126's affected in this way or only the ones manufactured before a certain date. If so what date?

From what I can tell 'early' motors were/are most vulnerable and CAT replaced/ repaired/ modified many 3126's worldwide to solve the issue. These particular motors were delivered new with the boat to the Hong Kong owner in 2003. The boat was then sold to it's current owner in 2006 who imported it into New Zealand where it is now.

What I'd like to do is get a CAT engineer to research the engine numbers and find out the history however, getting access to the boat etc is an issue. Would I be best to turn it around and make it a condition of the contract that the Vendor provide me with proof that either these engines are not affected by the known issues or that they have been modified accordingly?

As I'm new to all of this your thoughts are appreciated.

Kind regards,

JT.

 

[ccscott49]

Thanks Deleted User and All,

Having read a lot about these engines over the last few days it seems that there are known issues of:-

1. Valve problems,
2. Injector sleeve problems,
3. Soft blocks which were manufactured in France.

What I don't know is are all 3126's affected in this way or only the ones manufactured before a certain date. If so what date?

From what I can tell 'early' motors were/are most vulnerable and CAT replaced/ repaired/ modified many 3126's worldwide to solve the issue. These particular motors were delivered new with the boat to the Hong Kong owner in 2003. The boat was then sold to it's current owner in 2006 who imported it into New Zealand where it is now.

What I'd like to do is get a CAT engineer to research the engine numbers and find out the history however, getting access to the boat etc is an issue. Would I be best to turn it around and make it a condition of the contract that the Vendor provide me with proof that either these engines are not affected by the known issues or that they have been modified accordingly?

As I'm new to all of this your thoughts are appreciated.

Kind regards,

JT.

If you and other people are that worried about these engines, IMHO I would walk away, there must be other boats around.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I believe that Cat maintain a database of engine records such that if warranty work is carried out on any engine by one of it's dealers, it should appear on the database. Just ask the broker selling the boat to supply the engines no's. He should understand that you want to research the service records of these engines. You can't ask the existing owner to warrant that the engines are not suffering from any of the problems you have described. Well, you can but no sensible person is going to give you that warranty. After all it's a 6yr old secondhand boat!
What you can and must do is get your local Cat dealer to inspect the engines, preferably during a sea trial when the engines can be put under load. The engineer should carry out an oil analysis so make sure he does. In case you don't know, an oil analysis measures the quantities of various contaminants in the oil but it must be compared to the length of time and the number of running hours that the oil has been in the engines. Ask the broker to confirm how many running hours have passed since the last oil change. There needs to have been at least 30 hours running for an oil analysis to be worthwile. The analysis will show any unexpectedly high levels of contamination relative to the no of running hours which may be an indication of premature wear but the Cat engineer should be able to interpret the results for you. Just FYI, an oil analysis once stopped me buying a boat which would have resulted in a very expensive engine rebuild