Princess or Ferretti , what boat would you choose?

BartW said:
There is one possible way to keep the resale value up, (and get her sold later)
If I manage to make the “Live aboard Diving “ thing to work,
The boat, the paperwork, the organization, the travel agency, (there are angency’s typically for that)
And then later sell it as a business, …?
For now, this is not the first aim, just want to enjoy myself, but you never know in the future.
Click to expand...


Hey Bart.

So you've made an offer then. A very cheeky one I hope!!

I hadn't thought of the specialist market for a dive / charter boat. It would certianly be somewhat unique I would imagine. Lots of luxury for when your not covered in neoprene :)

Look forward to hearing how the offer goes. I would also feel reassured regarding Alf's comments. Its easy to forget about all the 1,000's of big diesel engines running plant machine and alike that dont get anywhere near as much love or concern as our boat engines do but still work fine. I also get the feeling that he and a few others on hear know their stuff....and then some!!!
 
FARSCO said:
Hey Bart.

So you've made an offer then. A very cheeky one I hope!!

Look forward to hearing how the offer goes. I would also feel reassured regarding Alf's comments. Its easy to forget about all the 1,000's of big diesel engines running plant machine and alike that dont get anywhere near as much love or concern as our boat engines do but still work fine. I also get the feeling that he and a few others on hear know their stuff....and then some!!!
Click to expand...
The broker discusses about my offer as "the engines don't need a rebuyld" he say's, "just a good maintenance", isn't that a good sign ? :)

FARSCO said:
I hadn't thought of the specialist market for a dive / charter boat. It would certianly be somewhat unique I would imagine. Lots of luxury for when your not covered in neoprene :)
Click to expand...

we have been in Maldives on MY Stingray
http://liveaboardsmaldives.com/maldives-stingray.htm

and on SY Safruga, she sunk :eek:

in Palau (micronesia) on SY Ocean Hunter I
http://www.oceanhunter.com/n/Palau.html

and in Egypt on
MY Excellence
MY Dolce Vita
MY Obsession (x2)
http://www.divingworld.nl/Bestemmingen/De-Rode-Zee/Egypte/Liveaboards/MY-Obsession/

the red sea is full of them,
thats where I got the idea,
there is only one or two live aboard boats in Croatia
there isn't one single in SOF
 
who knows Italian brokers ?

do you think it makes sense to offer the broker some hand money to make the deal work ? (its a one man company)
or is this not done ?

In case I get a deal, is it likely to pay no deposit,
just the fee for the lift out/in ? in advance

and my surveyers ofcause.
 
I know a lot of them, but if you will give, give the fee in the end when everything has worked out well.
And did he clarify the issue with commisions as usually Italians take it from the client. Some clients only others from both sides. You will never know the story here. Most of Italian brokers do this, unless otherwise specified.
As for deposit Italian brokers usually take a cheque of about 5 to 10% value which want be cashed in or deposited in a bank, but will be kept in has hands as showing of agreement of the contract. Cheque will be returned when deal has gone trough and funds are being transferred.
Yes he will give a quote for lift out in a yard. Surveyor is surely on your behalf.
 
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Engines

BartW said:
The broker discusses about my offer as "the engines don't need a rebuyld" he say's, "just a good maintenance", isn't that a good sign ? :)
Click to expand...


What the ???? is good maintenance ???

1) You need to be there at engine startup ..... Be there at startup from cold !!! ... and when I say cold, I mean cold to touch exhaust manifolds... if they are even remotely luke warm, the engines will have been started before you arrive and you will have no initial idea of compression issues, or possible injector problems (state this and let them know that if they have started them before, you are forced to suspect, and calculate with a re-build at €1800 per cylinder .... owner won't like that, but you need to protect yourself) it would be great to be in the engine room at startup and look at for crank case vents etc., and do have easy access to stern to look at exhaust at startup...

2) If batteries are good, or access to shorepower/generators (do start these up first) to boost the starter batteries are there, then check batteries .... but would be good to have best possible power available at startup, to avoid issues like poor battery power bing used as an excuse ... These engines need good power at startup, and if cranking is slow, they will over fuel on some cylinders, belch smoke, which would make MF look like a toy steam generator, start on 6 or 8 cylinders, then gradually the other ones will fire until setteling at a nice 450 - 550 RPM smoth idle.
If good engines, and regularly used (make consession for first start of the season) you should only have to crank a couple of seconds, then they should fire, slight hunting (no more than 30 seconds)... a small belch of white smoke (may have small oil sheen on water if slighltly out of tune)... for then to settle down to smooth idle (you should manage to balance a €1 on edge of the governor, or other flat surface even when idling from cold).

3) You need a sea trial !!!! Run engines up hot, then WOT and kee them there !!! You should not see significant temperature rise .... Temperature and oil pressure should be stable and settle at given WOT ... WOT is 2300, or 2100 RPM (make sure you establish this before running... this is stamped on engine rocker covers, or inside engine manuals). The engines at WOT shuld reach this (use gauges in engine room as these most probably are mechanical gauges and will be free from electro mechanical mis-readings)!!!! Failure to do this will result in black smoke (even light) and indicates over size propellors ... which may in turn mean overloaded engines = trouble and re-build on the cards soon... (people did and still do this believing they can push out that extra knot at same RPM as "they never run at WOT anyway"... failing to see that everything else is out of kilter.... X Diesel = Y bang = Z heat, which needs dispersing through exhaust cooling etc.... and all of a sudden everything is stretched that little bit further).

4) After the sea trial, take oil samples (not before as oil may newly be changed and may hide issues).

6) If you suspect problems, you can have agent check out cylinder bores and piston rings visually (you can do this with these engines in situ)... and in worst case, do a compression test (this needs to be done at 600 RPM, not at set idle)!

Of course this should be done after "good service", filter change and a re-tune, which the owner should offer to do at own cost if he trust that the engines are in good condition not in need of a re-build....., and a significant reduction in price.... (two people can play that game ... :) )

This just from the top of my head of course, whilst bored in a hotel in Amsterdam preparing for a workshop tomorrow....
 
Divemaster1 said:
What the ???? is good maintenance ???

1) You need to be there at engine startup ..... Be there at startup from cold !!! ... and when I say cold, I mean cold to touch exhaust manifolds... if they are even remotely luke warm, the engines will have been started before you arrive and you will have no initial idea of compression issues, or possible injector problems (state this and let them know that if they have started them before, you are forced to suspect, and calculate with a re-build at €1800 per cylinder .... owner won't like that, but you need to protect yourself) it would be great to be in the engine room at startup and look at for crank case vents etc., and do have easy access to stern to look at exhaust at startup...

2) If batteries are good, or access to shorepower/generators (do start these up first) to boost the starter batteries are there, then check batteries .... but would be good to have best possible power available at startup, to avoid issues like poor battery power bing used as an excuse ... These engines need good power at startup, and if cranking is slow, they will over fuel on some cylinders, belch smoke, which would make MF look like a toy steam generator, start on 6 or 8 cylinders, then gradually the other ones will fire until setteling at a nice 450 - 550 RPM smoth idle.
If good engines, and regularly used (make consession for first start of the season) you should only have to crank a couple of seconds, then they should fire, slight hunting (no more than 30 seconds)... a small belch of white smoke (may have small oil sheen on water if slighltly out of tune)... for then to settle down to smooth idle (you should manage to balance a €1 on edge of the governor, or other flat surface even when idling from cold).

3) You need a sea trial !!!! Run engines up hot, then WOT and kee them there !!! You should not see significant temperature rise .... Temperature and oil pressure should be stable and settle at given WOT ... WOT is 2300, or 2100 RPM (make sure you establish this before running... this is stamped on engine rocker covers, or inside engine manuals). The engines at WOT shuld reach this (use gauges in engine room as these most probably are mechanical gauges and will be free from electro mechanical mis-readings)!!!! Failure to do this will result in black smoke (even light) and indicates over size propellors ... which may in turn mean overloaded engines = trouble and re-build on the cards soon... (people did and still do this believing they can push out that extra knot at same RPM as "they never run at WOT anyway"... failing to see that everything else is out of kilter.... X Diesel = Y bang = Z heat, which needs dispersing through exhaust cooling etc.... and all of a sudden everything is stretched that little bit further).

4) After the sea trial, take oil samples (not before as oil may newly be changed and may hide issues).

6) If you suspect problems, you can have agent check out cylinder bores and piston rings visually (you can do this with these engines in situ)... and in worst case, do a compression test (this needs to be done at 600 RPM, not at set idle)!

Of course this should be done after "good service", filter change and a re-tune, which the owner should offer to do at own cost if he trust that the engines are in good condition not in need of a re-build....., and a significant reduction in price.... (two people can play that game ... :) )

This just from the top of my head of course, whilst bored in a hotel in Amsterdam preparing for a workshop tomorrow....
Click to expand...

Couldn't you be more specific Alf! :D
 
AndieMac said:
Couldn't you be more specific Alf! :D
Click to expand...

:D brilliant :D

to Alf,
Thank you very much for the info,
Don't worry, I have the local specialist here ready with the spanners to go with me for the survey when we have a deal. They are the biggest company in Belgium for Rebuilding al sorts of Diesel engines, ao DD. they are close to my office, and I had a pleasant chat with them on the Belgium Boat Show a few weeks ago. They did rebuilds in Antibes and Croatia (they took the engines appart)


What I meant is that the Broker is triing to raise the price as they are "convinced" that the engines are in a good condition. I can't believe they would say so if they new that one engine had serious issues. But ofcause you never know with these Italians :) (sorry for that MapisM)

for sure we need to do a sea trial.
The boat is now on the dry, and it is quite complicated to put her in the water (no big crane on that yard)
I had in mind that the boat should stay on the dry until we are there, so that we can first inspect the outside, rudder and props..., and then put her in the water, start her up,.................................................. and to do a sea trial.


first waiting for an agreement, and then planning the survey....
ones again thanks for your comprehensive advice

I feel sorry for you beeing stucked between hollanders :D
 
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BartW said:
What I meant is that the Broker is triing to raise the price as they are "convinced" that the engines are in a good condition. I can't believe they would say so if they new that one engine had serious issues. But ofcause you never know with these Italians :) (sorry for that MapisM)
Click to expand...

Hey Bart

I wouldnt pay any attention to what the broker is saying. How can he possible know the condition of the mechanicials unless a previous survey has been done but even then, was it any good and why not give you a copy.

I really wouldnt trust his comments and thats nothing against him or brokers. They are there to broker a deal and get the best price for the seller and more importantly himself!! He may honestly believe all is well but again, how does he know. If he offers a 12 month warranty...fair enough ;)

You really have to stick with a price that sits well with you and you only have one chance to get it right. Once the money is spent...its spent.

You may be thinking up your offer and then knock them down after survey but again, a bit risky as you have already spent money on lifts, survey's etc and in yours and your families mind, you are getting a new boat so its that much harder to walk away as the love affair is that much further along. I have done this myself and ended up accepting issues that I really shouldnt have but by then I had sorted everything out for the boat so felt a bit obligated. Cost me a fortune in the long run :(

I cant imagine they are inudated with cash offers so remember, you are in charge of this deal. I reckon if it looked like you were walking away, the broker would soon change his tune.

5% of something is better than 5% of nothing!!
 
FARSCO said:
Hey Bart

I wouldnt pay any attention to what the broker is saying. How can he possible know the condition of the mechanicials unless a previous survey has been done but even then, was it any good and why not give you a copy.

I really wouldnt trust his comments and thats nothing against him or brokers. They are there to broker a deal and get the best price for the seller and more importantly himself!! He may honestly believe all is well but again, how does he know. If he offers a 12 month warranty...fair enough ;)

You really have to stick with a price that sits well with you and you only have one chance to get it right. Once the money is spent...its spent.

You may be thinking up your offer and then knock them down after survey but again, a bit risky as you have already spent money on lifts, survey's etc and in yours and your families mind, you are getting a new boat so its that much harder to walk away as the love affair is that much further along. I have done this myself and ended up accepting issues that I really shouldnt have but by then I had sorted everything out for the boat so felt a bit obligated. Cost me a fortune in the long run :(

I cant imagine they are inudated with cash offers so remember, you are in charge of this deal. I reckon if it looked like you were walking away, the broker would soon change his tune.
Click to expand...


Hey farsco, I completely agree with you, on every aspect,
I stick with my offer, I have only set some details clear about costs of comission, liftout and survey.

The broker is desperately asking me NOT to put an offer on another C70 somewhere else.
He say's that the owner is confused what to do now.
The Boat is in a bad condition. Improving the boat will only cost him money, and no assurance that she will sell any faster...
I'm not sure if this is another strategy to raise the price or something ??
no problem I am not in a hurry.


FARSCO said:
5% of something is better than 5% of nothing!!
Click to expand...

Thats what I sometimes say to my sales people; 15% of something is better than 30% of nothing.....:)
 
BINGO!

owner of Nefertari accepted my offer,
tomorrow we will discuss about the contract,
(he's out of his office today)

do you think I can make the deal work, with just a small deposit,
covering the liftout, and the expenses of the broker, lets say 2K
so that in case I don't want to buy, there is no hassle recovering the deposit.

broker was speaking of a deposit of 30%, thats far too high,
was rather thinking of the brokers part, 10% max, he's a small one man company, you never know what happens with him....or my deposit

I am not sure if a "letter of credit" can be used for such an occasion,

or maybe a cheque, but even then,....

or what would you advice ?
 
I'd go for the 2K deposit, what's he got to lose? If there were a queue of people wanting to buy then 10% may be more appropriate, but I guess that doesn't apply here?

Hope it all goes well, I guess we won't be seeing you on these shores again? :)
 
longjohnsilver said:
I guess we won't be seeing you on these shores again? :)
Click to expand...

the Schotland trip is still in our agenda,
coincidently this week one member of that team has been doing a cost estimation, the Amsterdam-Newcastle ferry is quite expensive,
Car with boat trailer + motorhome with equipment trailer + 8 peeps
next week we will meet with the group, and discuss about the budget.
 
time to look for a boot / Yacht surveyer.
anybody advice on that ?
perhaps somebody knows a reliable one in Italy,
or a good one in UK, ...

how much time would the survey normally take, including a lift in or out
think we should count on 2 day's or can this be done in one day ?
 
Agree with longjohnsilver. You dont know this broker guy and whilst your deposit is sitting in his account, its at risk so you need to keep it as low as possible. But on the other hand, you need to show the broker/seller you are serious so I think €2k is a bit low for this size of boat. Maybe €5k is a good compromise.
The big risk arises when you pay the balance for the boat, if you decide to buy it, because the normal way is to pay the broker of course. Even though legally the broker is the seller's agent and therefore the boat is yours when you pay the broker, you will have to enforce that under Italian law if the broker doesn't pay the seller and that is a potential nightmare. My advice would be to insist that you pay the seller direct and that the seller settles the broker's commission. Then you can be sure that the money reaches the seller. Even so, and I have bought a number of foreign boats, I always make sure that I am present at the boat when I make the final payment and then take possession of the boat straightaway preferably by driving her immediately to another marina or out of the country. If she is still on the hard, at the very least, take all the keys and let the marina know you are now the legal owner. I know this all sounds over the top but you do not want to pay all the money and arrive 2 weeks later to find no boat and the broker claiming he doesn't know you
 
Good news Bart!!!!

Thought boat was on-shore and ready for inspection already!! Issues as I see it are;

1) cost for lifting into the water and sea trial, then subsequent liftout again... if required..
2) Make sure that the present owner is responsible for shore based ost until agreed time (and that yard understand this as thay may believe that cost follow boat, not previous owner).
3) Would be great to have anti-fouling etc., done by someone before sea trial and if boat sale going ahead or not, this becomes the responsibility of whomever have the ownership.

In respect of payment, we did the following....

- Deposit cheque ... as low as possible, and be agreed to include some of the elements above as a show of "trust".
- Payment ... made out direcly to owner !
- Seperate payment to the broker, with return of deposit cheque.

Make sure you have someone ensuring the boat's papers are ok ... (ie' you'll need a solicitor acting on your behalf ... ).

... oooh ... and if you get to Schotland ... let us know... to make drive schorter, Rothsyth may be an alternative to Newcastle...
 
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