Princess or Ferretti , what boat would you choose?

[BartW]

Our trailable Karnic is a very practical boat for us, cruising or diving with up to 8 family members, friends or guests at many different locations all over Europe.

For us the next step up is a much bigger boat that has 8 or 10 beds, and do similar kind of activities, also some chartering, but then with live aboard. Cruising area, SOF and or Croatia,

Considering the diving, we don’t need a spic and span perfectly shiny new boat, We want a more utilitarian, or used boat, with a big rear deck, with the right accommodation and easy acces to the swim platform. We also need room for a big (5m) tender on the Flybridge, and we prefer a planing boat.
Some older (15y old) 60ft to 70ft boats come in the picture, and in our budget range. (400K euro)

For me Personally I have found a nice old Canados70, but acces to swim platform is awquate on these (ladder), and other family members prefer boats that look more sleek and sporty, they don’t like trawlers !

At the moments we are looking at used Ferretti 185’s

Here
http://www.thinkyachts.com/listing487/ferretti-185-s-yacht/
is the only example we found in Europe with the galley upstairs, many for sale with the galley downstairs, which we don’t like.

Apparently This boat has outstanding handling characteristics,
and MTU engines with V-drive


Or a Princess 65 (that’s swmbo’s favorite right now), has the perfect accommodation we want,

but most P65’s on the market have lower powered engines then similar ferrettis 2 x 660HP versus 2 x 1100hp

Here is one example, but you can find plenty of them on the net
http://www.cosasdebarcos.com/barco_18143050082369484951685670494566.html


here you can see what construction we had in mind for a decent tender, the biggest size that we could fit / lift on there….5m (?)

courtesy to AndyMac for stealing this pic from his thread


I’am also wondering what kind of trouble we could expect with older engines,
Would it be an option to do a bargain on a lower powered old boat, and put in brand new engines, perhaps not in balance with the value of the boat ?

 

[Hurricane]

We've got a P67 which was the successor to the P65.
You will have difficulty getting a 5m RIB on the FB.
Our 67 is only 5.23 max beam - the 65 is smaller.
However, I'm a great believer in the dinghy up top - out of the way.

On the plus side, the P65 has lots of accommodation if you consider the utility room as extra cabin space. I believe that the P65 has been a popular boat over the years as well.

We went for the 67 (vs the smaller at the time 62) because we wanted lots of comfortable space for all on board. The 67 only has 3 (but very large) cabins plus the crews quarters. Our previous Solent based cruising didn’t need massive accommodation because we were only an hour or so from home but IMO out in the Med, good accommodation is important - we definitely have a "home from home".

As to the original question - Princess or Ferretti?
I can only speak for Princess but I'd give them the thumbs up.
When we were looking, Ferretti didnt really suit us.

For diving - would your budget stretch to a Manhattan 64 MKII with the lifting bathing platform

 

[Bajansailor]

Just a suggestion - it might be worthwhile considering a power cat, rather than a monohull?

I did a search on www.Yachtworld.com, and typed in basic parameters re 'powercat', 'Europe' and 'Euros 400k max', and a few interesting vessels came up.

For example, this Prowler 45 has 4 double cabins, built in 2004, 2 x 240 hp Yanmars, 600 hrs on engines, cruises at 17 knots on 35 litres/hr. It is in France, and they are asking Euros 400k.
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2004/Charter-Cats-Prowler-450-2277901/France

And here is a Prowler in Portugal : http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2004/Prowler-450-Power-1909303/Portugal

Here is an interesting project boat for Euros 400k, but you would have to pay VAT somewhere - and it sounds as if you would have to fit out the accomodation, but it would appear to be ideal for yourselves re diving operations :
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/201...cial-Catamaran-(motor)-2277559/Valencia/Spain

Or how about a Prout Panther Cat 61 for Euros 390k (no Vat payable) :
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1995/Prout-Catamarans-Panther-61-1144567/Costa-Blanca/Spain

Or a Fountaine Pajot Cumberland 44 with 4 double cabins, built in 2006, for Euros 350k (but again you would have to pay Vat) :
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2006/Fountaine-Pajot-Cumberland-44-2252394/Lagos/Portugal

 

[BartW]

I'm a great believer in the dinghy up top - out of the way.

yes, and have an empty bathing platform all the time (for diving from the main boat)
a tender a little bit smaller then 5m will do, but I don't mind if it is slightly longer then the beam of the FB

For diving - would your budget stretch to a Manhattan 64 MKII with the lifting bathing platform

Manhattans and squadrons have a radar arch at the rear of the FB, on the position where I would like that big tender, thats why we didn't consider them

 

[longjohnsilver]

The P65 looks good, certainly for diving you can't underestimate the importance of a level cockpit / bathing platform. That lakes a huge difference, on Eos there's about a 35cm step down which is a real pain. Any more than that would make diving very difficult, almost dangerous.
Why the need for such a large tender? Are you going for a RIB or an inflatable floor?

 

[BartW]

Hi BJS, thank you very much for taking time to post these sugestions.
Just for the diving, you're absolutely right that a catamaran is a good choice, but I have to admid that I really don't like them.
The diving is just an extra option, but we would like to go for a monohull planing boat.

but you would have to pay VAT somewhere

not really, we prefer a Non VAT payed boat, registered on a company, chartering ...etc

Here is an interesting project boat

we don't mind a project, I have been considering projects such as moving the galley on a Ferretti 185 from downstairs to upstairs,

or converting a full beam master cabin to two smaller twin cabins...

the finish may be rather basic or utilitarian


thanks again for posting !

 

[BartW]

The P65 looks good, certainly for diving you can't underestimate the importance of a level cockpit / bathing platform. That lakes a huge difference, on Eos there's about a 35cm step down which is a real pain. Any more than that would make diving very difficult, almost dangerous.

I'm not with you on this, in november I was on a diving liveaboard on the "obsession" in Egypt. that has 4 steps level difference between the deck and the bathing platform, and that platform is about 1m above water surface,
pls advice ?

http://www.divingworld.nl/Bestemmingen/De-Rode-Zee/Egypte/Liveaboards/MY-Obsession/

Why the need for such a large tender? Are you going for a RIB or an inflatable floor?

sometimes when the boat is anchored you want to drop or recover the divers with the tender from a remote diving spot, or when they are drifted away by the current... you've never been on a diving liveaboard ?

prefer RIB, but should probably need to go for SIB due to crane / weight limits.
I believe I still have on old Zodiac Futura MarkIII (4.7m, 50HP) somewhere, should try to fix that one I guess

 

[jfm]

The ferretti is very nice but quite rare and more expensive

That princess is 66 I think not 65? I wouldn't get Cat660s; too small. But it was built with bigger engines, eg this one with MAN800s and a very attractive price vat paid for a good condition boat (Belgium flagged!). Ignore the exterior profile photo - it is not the same boat and the broker must have made a mistake there. I thought the last ones were built with MAN1000+?

The princess has a big aft deck and nice internal staircase. But a 5m tender would be very difficult. The engine leg might stick out which will offend neighbours, and anyway most flybridge cranes are rated for around 350kg whereas a 5m tender with say 70hp is more like 600kg surely? A crane that will lift 600kg is a monster piece of gear and v expensive. You might be better (and same cost) retrofitting a hi-low platofrm like on this boat or the Aquastar 57 that is in the new issue of MBY magazine

Good luck anyway with the search!

 

[longjohnsilver]

I'm not with you on this, in november I was on a diving liveaboard on the "obsession" in Egypt. that has 4 steps level difference between the deck and the bathing platform, and that platform is about 1m above water surface,
pls advice ?

Ah, steps are different to a ladder. Just so long as you have a decent handrail and the steps are big enough.
http://www.divingworld.nl/Bestemmingen/De-Rode-Zee/Egypte/Liveaboards/MY-Obsession/



sometimes when the boat is anchored you want to drop or recover the divers with the tender from a remote diving spot, or when they are drifted away by the current... you've never been on a diving liveaboard ?

No not been on a diving live aboard - only my own!! How many divers at a trime do you plan to have in the water?

prefer RIB, but should probably need to go for SIB due to crane / weight limits.
I believe I still have on old Zodiac Futura MarkIII (4.7m, 50HP) somewhere, should try to fix that one I guess

Yes I'd also prefer a RIB but the weight of a 4 - 5 metre RIB will be huge, and presumably you'd want a big heavy outboard. I'd have a look for your Zodiac!!

 

[MapisM]

I wouldn't get Cat660s; too small.

Agreed.
Otoh, you're not doing Bart a favour suggesting anything with some 15 yo MAN stuff in the e/r, J....

 

[BartW]

The ferretti is very nice but quite rare and more expensive

the one with the galley downstairs, we found quite a few on the market, and affordable
and the Alture 58 almost the same but older model, you find a few really cheap (with MTU 2x1000HP)

That princess is 66 I think not 65?

this is the first P66 I come across, apparently the slightly younger model then the P65, and with more HP,
have found quite a few, with just a few minutes googling...

there seems to be a lot of choise in this segment, good position for a buyer

You might be better (and same cost) retrofitting a hi-low platofrm

this is no option,
for diving,
we want to be able to jump from the bathing platform, and climbing back on it, while the tender is on the FB......so that the boat remains moveable (no tender moored along the boat)

 

[Hurricane]

What do you actually want out of the dinghy?
What about the "all rounder" - "jack of all trades" - Walker Bay?
Its very light - a RIB - pulls skiers - carries 4 full size adults.
We have a 40 Yam on the back of ours.

If you are looking at the P65 vs the older P66 - it would be a shame (probably impossible) to convert the mid cabin - its offset to starboard and not full beam.

Fully agree with your thoughts on the bathing platform - thats exactly how we use ours.
In fact the dinghy chocks are removable so that you either have them on the FB or the bathing platform - if we are feeling lazy, we just put the dinghy on the bathing platform - if going stern to in a marina we mostly stick it up top out of the way.

There is a small issue to consider - the best way to use the crane is to launch the dinghy on the starboard side - not over the aft of the bathing platform. The crane is offset to starboard and designed to reach/launch on the starboard side. It is just possible with a light dinghy to push it over the aft of the bathing platform but its hard work. A heavy dinghy would be very difficult.
I've got some pics of the dinghy launching if you are interested.
Likewise there are loads of pics of the Walker Bay
I've also got some pics of an old P65 that we looked at a few years ago.

 

[BartW]

What do you actually want out of the dinghy?

The tender is mainly for recovering the divers from a nearby dive spot, so we need a Rib or Sib without any seats nor accomodation, the divers sit on the tube, and put the gear on the floor.
a 4.5m rib can have 4 max 6 divers and a shipper when they need to travel just a few minutes
Having seen some pics of the walker bay, I believe it is not practical for the diving the wide seats take too much space if I remember well.

The crane is offset to starboard and designed to reach/launch on the starboard side.

thats what I thought,
but I learned today that a standard crane is probably not strong enough for a decent tender, so either we take a smaller tender, or make our own crane, we have some handy guy's in the company that made even more challanging metal rigging constructions ,
but yes I know, the salty environment, the not so solid base, ....
perhaps not a good idea.


pictures from launching the tender,
and a P65, yes pls, if you like and find some time,
many thanks in advance,

I've not yet seen the accomodation of a P66, only investigated a few P65's,
will do it now
thank you for posting !

 

[MapisM]

An alternative

Bart,
how much is the "sleek and sporty" thing really crucial for your wife?
For the usage you're describing, I would rather look for a strong, ruggedly built and very comfortable boat, in the first place.
Hatteras is what immediately sprung to my mind, reading your post.
Look at this one, just as an example.
I haven't seen many professional diving boats with a better arrangement than that extended cockpit.
Not sure about the crane capacity, but with a beam in excess of 5.5m and a full width f/b, she's surely in another league compared to the previous boats.
Not to mention the interiors!
Yes, a few knots slower than Ferretti or Princess, but you could still bash at 20+kts against a head sea which would force those boats to throttle back and run for cover.
And fwiw, you can assure your family that no boater with a pinch of salt would ever think "pah! how little sleek that boat is"...

 

[oceandrive]

What you want is a Sunseeker Predator 62 or similar. This will give you a garage for the dive equipment and an hydrolic platform which will launch the tender. The Hydrolic platform will also be good for the divers as the platform can be lowered from anything from sea level to 1 mt submerged.

See pics of Mr Bluesky which has a 4.8 mtr williams in the garage and a 320 jet avon on the platform. However I have designed it so that the 4.8 Williams can also go in the platform.

Ok Mr Bluesky is a 92S but platforms on the 62,72,82 are not a great deal smaller so I would think you could get the benefits for the divers and the rib launch and recovery to work well with a rise and fall platform.

the only problem I have found is that in a heavy swell you need some man power to recover the rib ino the platform safely as its easy if hit by a wave to get run over by your own rib eeeek. Saying this I would not like to crane a 5mt rib onto a fly bridge in anything other than a flat sea.

 

[AndieMac]

Bart, as jfm says a 5 metre dinghy and what is needed as an engine to push it full of divers and their gear, is going to be a pretty big piece of equipment.

The dinghy extension deck you see on 'Seaport Princess' carries a 4 metre hypalon RIB with alloy V hull and a 50 hp Honda.
I don't think I'd like a bigger boat and engine up that high, the beam is only 5.1 metres and she heels quite a bit when the crane is fully extended out over the port side during retrieval.
The new crane was GBP 18K fitted, and rated to 350 kgs, does a great job and highly recommened, Italian, Opcomere or something similar, just fabulous.

Others knock the big MAN's, but they (1200's 401 series) have been very good generally and super reliable. Things like faulty start relays and switches have you scratching your head sometimes, but that will happen on any engines.
The biggest issue over the years has been chronic electrolosis involving replacement of the raw water system from the inlet seacocks through to the entire exhaust system, which was down to poor installation. This was recified by correct bonding.
The P66 is a very strong boat, you can't break it, but because of their age, things like deck hatches and windows (above deck) will need re-sealing.

Good luck with the boat hunting mate.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Having owned 2 Princesses and 2 Ferrettis, I've got an opinion on this. Princesses are excellent boats; they have very good hulls generally and you probably won't be disappointed if you buy one. However IMHO, Ferrettis are a level above in terms of build quality especially if you are comparing an older Ferretti against an older Princess. The features that attracted us to a Ferretti in the first place (and it was my SWMBO who noticed them in the Med before I did!) were things like the off white gelcoat which IMHO looks classier than pure white and doesn't dazzle your eyes so much plus probably doesn't fade so quickly as well. Then there are the wider than average side decks, chunky guardrails and mooring gear, large cockpits with 100% flybridge overhang, large flybridge area, and flat working area at the bow (important for line handling with Med moorings). Other Ferretti features we like also are the internal stairs to the f/b which you wont find on many other boats and the hinging window which opens up the saloon to the cockpit. We also find the saloon seating as comfortable as any boat we've owned.
In terms of engineering, I think they are better too. Every Ferretti I've seen has the fuel tanks forward of the engines located at the CoG so varying fuel loads dont affect the trim. Also because the fuel tanks are not outboard of the engines (as most Brit boats), access around the outside of the engines is better. Again, every Ferretti I've seen as proper Racor fuel filters, usually doubled up, deep sea shaft seals, 3 way main seacocks so you can use the engines to pump out the bilges, through hull underwater exhausts, sightglasses on fuel tanks etc etc. The galley fridge compressor is located in the engine bay with a gas cooling loop outside the hull. The aircon is a separated chilled water system. I'm not saying that Princesses dont have this stuff just probably not all of it.
We also like the fact that Ferrettis are beamier than most other boats which gives more volume inside and FWIW they are RCD Cat A certified whereas most Brit boats are Cat B. Actually I dont think this point about Cat A or Cat B certification means a great deal.
If you want to talk further, drop me a PM and you are most welcome of course to look over my boat if you wish

 

[Divemaster1]

8 People + ... Thinking a bit out of the Box here... The wide body should give plenty of living space....

http://www.parisibroker.com/scheda.asp?scheda=1864

 

[BartW]

For the usage you're describing, I would rather look for a strong, ruggedly built and very comfortable boat, in the first place.
Hatteras is what immediately sprung to my mind, reading your post.

You’re spot on Mario,
This is exactly the boat type that I was initially looking for, you know my taste, found a bargain Hatteras in Belgium, similar to the one above, but much lower HP's...
In the same league I have been looking at Old Itama’s and Canados, but none of them was as much HP as the one you traced.

But still some job to do to convince the “family”,
each time when we pass such a boat the kids say, "look mam, that’s the kind of boat that daddy wants" and then they laugh very loud
So still a job to do, The P’s and F’s seemed a good compromise, but you’re exactly right about strength, ruggedly, comfort, sea behavior

One concern, stepping from the deck on the bathing platform with the diving gear on, is not easy, some steps / modifs are needed, same problem with a Canados

Its going to be a tough choice

 

[jfm]

<<Originally Posted by jfm
You might be better (and same cost) retrofitting a hi-low platofrm>>



this is no option,
for diving,
we want to be able to jump from the bathing platform, and climbing back on it, while the tender is on the FB......so that the boat remains moveable (no tender moored along the boat)

In that case I would consider having the tender sitting on a "car" (or maybe "train" is a better word) on the up/down platform, so that you can slide it (on rails/tracks) to one side by 2.5m (overhanging past the edge of the mothership) to create (50%) room on the up/down platform when you want to use it for diving. This is going to be better than a crane, if you want a 5m/70hp tender, imho.