Price Outlook?

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That is increasingly the future of boating.

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That's a very bold statement to make. There are still planty of big planing boats around the Balearics (a lot of them British made) and no Red diesel.
 
Yes I agree that is a fact but most of those doing very short trips out for the day or weekend and back - what i call blast around the bay - not cruising. Yet even those will be reduced in proportion as world fuel prices keep rising.

In any event I am talking about the UK not the Med or the USA etc. I am talking about those boats effected by the red issue.
 
But boatowners in Spain already pay full price for their diesel and still but large planing boats.

You are right in suggesting that boatowners in the Med do more short trips, but isn't it possible that the UK market will also go that way? Not everyone is going to see the situation as you do.

Your method of coping with higher fuel prices is to buy a more frugal boat. Others may choose to just not go as far.
 
Agree with all of that, but if we are talking about the Boat market in general terms all the brands you mention are very specialist and only sell to specialist buyers. Most people just don't cruise long distances very often, even if they buy boats capable of it.
As you say people will cruise differently, but I think they will either go very fast not very far, or very slowly a long way. Any other way will just be too unacceptably expensive and that will be the SD way.
Its just my take on it anyway.
 
I agree with that.
I am not saying there is only one answer - there are many including not even entering boating.
However the net effect of increasing boating prices is reduced demand.
Here is what I think:-
In 4 years time the amount of large planing boats in UK water will be less than it is now.
There will be fewer MoBo's of all types it is just that the large planing boat will be hit the hardest - the 50 to 70 foot range.
 
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at 18 knots in the SD hull I use the same mpg as the planing boat at 26 knots

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Paul, I have a problem getting my head around those figures. Surely it's all down to the amount of BHP being used factured with the time getting to your destination? So if a SD hull was using 400 bhp to do 18 knots and a Planning hull was using 400 BHP to do 30 knots the fuel burnt per hour would be the same but It'll cost a lot more in the SD cause it will take longer for the journey?

They may burn the same gph but not mpg surely?
 
Kev
All that matters when measuring fuel consumption is miles per gallon. That is the only way of a meaningful fuel consumption measurement. It removes the element of time that you have to factor in when using gph.

My planing hull at abouty 18 knots used about the same mpg as at 26 knots, many planing boats once over the hump have their worst mpg then it improves as you go faster - mpg improves up to a point - so that once properly plaining whilst the galls per hour increases withj increasing speed the mpg does not - that is until you go past max cruising speed up to max speed then you get a big increase.

So Drumbeat gave about the same mpg at 18 knots as she did at the 23 to 26 knot cruising range that she felt comfortable with.

The SD hull on the other hand - once past 10 knots gave about the same mpg right up to 18 knots and that was the same as Drumbeat in the 18 to 26 knot range. There was no point to going at 14 knots because its was about the same mpg at 18 knots and just as comfortable.

I have discussed these issue before on this forum and someone presented a table featuring gph for their planing boat but when you worled out the mpg instead of gph it was clear that the mpg curve was very flat just as I describe.
 
Paul

Not sure about there being fewer boats - where will they have gone? I do think their resale value will be lower though.

Some of us may see that as an opportunity though :-)
 
Sorry I disagree. for you to do the same weekend outing as me say chichester to yarmouth and back, with both of us using the same bhp you'd take longer therefore use more fuel.
 
You are making an assumption about the bhp that is wrong and going about it all in a very convoluted manner.

The fact is that in a planing boat I can travel at different speeds to the same destination and use the same anount of fule both times )to within a few percent) because of the nature of fuel consumption on a planing boat. In fact in mpg terms travelling just over the hump say 13 knots would be worse mpg than traevlling faster!!! You have paid the penalty to lift the boat onto the plane and then not used the advanatage of being on the plane by increasing speed to achieve a more effcient balance.

Do you accept that a planing boat has almost the same mpg figure over a wide range of speeds?
 
and you are making an assumption that peoples boating behaviour will be driven absolutely by economics. That simply is not true. If it were,no one would go boating at all.
Fuel will be a part of the overall, not very scientific,emotional decision as to whether to boat, and if so, what sort of boating.
There will be a whole host of different decisions people will make, most of them perhaps totally irrational, and not all with the same outcome.
I'd be more concerened about the effect of economic downturn than fuel. After all, looks like all those /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gifprivate equity boys wont tbe buying that glamour boat after all.
 
Paul,

The figures below are taken from the Sessa web site showing revs against speed for a boat the same as mine fitted with Volvo D4-260's

The Graph is from the Volvo Penta web site showing fuel burn per hour for the same engine, D4-260.


The fuel burn per hour is far from flat anywhere across the rev range. In fact the fuel burn difference from 15 knots to 33 knots is not far from 3 times the amount and shows a similar increase across most of the rev range per 1000 rpm.

So to answer the question: No I don't agree that once on the plane the fuel burn is flat.


REVS Knots
1000 6
1500 9
2000 15
2500 24
3000 33
3500 39

volvod4-260GPH-1.jpg
 
Nopwhere have I stated anything like that decisions are driven purely be economics - they are not and I have been at pains to say so.

There are many different ways that people react but this thread is about economics - the price outlook on boats and so it is perfectly reasonable to look at how a market as a whole behaves such as price goes up - demand goes down. Human behaviour even changes that almost universal rule because in some instances such as a perfume price goes up demand goes up!!!

Studying the economic effect of boat prices means that you are studying how the market as a whole reacts even though that reaction is made up as the sum of many individual reactions. That is waht economics is!

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Fuel will be a part of the overall, not very scientific,emotional decision as to whether to boat, and if so, what sort of boating.


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I have stated many times that fuel is only one factor amongst many and I have detailed those factors. So i agree with that.

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There will be a whole host of different decisions people will make, most of them perhaps totally irrational, and not all with the same outcome.


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I agree again because that is how a market reacts but you can still give opinions on how that market will react. During these discussions I have made it totally clear that pricer of fuel is just one factor of many.

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I'd be more concerened about the effect of economic downturn than fuel. After all, looks like all those private equity boys wont tbe buying that glamour boat after all.

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Yet again we agree - I think the economic downturn will have more effect than fuel. Never the less fuel will have an effect and this thread ended up discusssing how fuel price will effect one craft type compared to another.

There are a host of actors causing a downturn in the market place I think the problem is that some are going to combine together to make that downturn more savage than it may have otherwise been and the fule price increase is one of them.
 
Kev
You are not looking at the right data - look at the fuel burn against knots achieved in a boat and you will see that the mpg is pretty flat.

These figures have been published on this forum before and this very point has been discussed withj that data.

So put the engine into a hull and then study the speed against fuel burn. You canniot take the engine without the boat. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
It doesn't matter how many mpg a boat is using when working out the ecconomics of two different boats over a set journey. What does matter is the gph. if two boats, one SD and one planning are both using 70% of the power from their identical engines the planning boat will be more economical over the set journey due to the fact the boat has completed the journey quicker thus not spending as much time at sea burning 70% of it's power.
 
Yes I saw that too, gludy, but the Fleming is a somewhat specialised boat. My observation of more common SD boats like Trader, G Banks, Aquastar and, here in the Med, Elegance, is that they are invariably cruised in their SD range ie 12-18knots and, at that speed, they are consuming more fuel than an equivalent planing boat. What you're saying is that something like a Trader will depreciate less than, say, a Fairline simply because the Trader is better at cruising at displacement speeds? I don't think so
I understand where you're coming from on the 18kt SD hull cruise speed against the 26 kt planing hull cruise speed but it's not a fair comparison as the planing boat is equally capable of cruising at 18kts at which speed, of course, it is using less fuel. I'm not criticising your choice of a SD boat for yourself. In your position, I would make the same choice but I just don't buy your fuel argument
 
Kev
All I am saying is that I can choose to use SD boat 1 at 18 knots for the jorney and use X mpg

OR use Planing boat 2 of the same size at 26 knots for the same journey at the same X mpg

Both would have used the same amount of fuel.
The planing boat would be at sea less time.

This was my direct experience with those two boat types.

Do you accept these figures as sensible?
 
Yup and I'm currently looking at a whole bay full of them off Sa Rapita /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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After all, looks like all those /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gifprivate equity boys wont tbe buying that glamour boat after all.

[/ QUOTE ] /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Yeah, possibly those with some boating business in their portfolio might even be worried about the best exit strategies...
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


I fully agree on your point re. the emotional factor, either.
Most of us pleasure boaters - even those with more costs awareness - at the end of the day do not decide the type of boat based on economic factors (aside from the available budget of course).
Thinking that the change of fuel prices might swap one single customer from Nortech catamarans to Nordhavn trawlers or the other way round is a total nonsense.
The example is a bit extreme just to give the idea, but that's valid also for all the choices in between.
If on average boaters are getting older and have more time available, now that's going to affect such choices, much more than fuel prices.
All imho as always.
 
QWe are graduall getting nearer.

I accept that your observations about what you see in the med as s stated are true as regards SD boats at the higher cruising speeds - that is not in dispute.

There will be a speed at which they will consume the same fule as the planing boat but that speed must be lower. Its seems that is also agreed.

However an average of sea conditions the ride comfort in the SD boat will be better at the sacririce of speed.

Also ... and this is the key point of dispute - the SD and D boats offer decent, stable slow cruising with fuel efficiency and that cannot be matched by the planing boat. In as much as the planing boat has the edge on a higher speed for a given amount of fuel it loses out at its ability for decent slow speed cruising which when fule prices rise and rise as they will, will become the mode that more and more people choose to adopt. \hence the effect of a fuel increase on D and SD boats will be less than on planing boats.

has that explained my point better?
 
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