Price of Chain to Anchor Rope Splice ???

No, of course not. I was referring to a single eye splice in a length of 3 strand polyester or nylon. I would charge more for more complex work, however it would be nowhere near those rates. People always want something for nothing so it's all about a balance between that and what you can afford to charge. People just aren't spending.............
 
Well said! I have pointed this out to David on a number of occassions previously, but as you say, despite his many incisive observations on some subjects, I think he lives in a make believe world of his own. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your point of view, we live in a real world of 60 million or so people who live honest decent lives and make their way in the world very successfully. In my view, people who opt out of this world and try and create their own are perfectly entitled to express their opinions on things they know something about, but not to belittle the efforts of those who still live in the "other" world.

I earn my living providing professional help to people who are running and growing small businesses. I have an academic background in economics, finance and management as well as a lifetime's experience of all kinds of businesses. I see concern and challenge but not doom scenarios. Indeed only two days ago I was working with a client whose business is growing at 30% a year, despite the gloom, and struggling to secure adequate long term funding. This is not an unusual situation. There are, of course marginal businesses that will die, but that happens all the time - it is part of the development of a modern society. It is not the forerunner of a collapse that David suggests. More a little wake up call about complacency!

As I have said to David before, if you want to see doom you can see it, but to see it you have to ignore all the other things that are going on. I have often quoted one of the truisms I picked up when I first started my career of academic enquiry. "A way of seeing is a way of not seeing". That is why my preferences for deriving understanding starts from what is, rather than from a pre-conceived idea of what is!

And I think the rigger who re-rigged my old boat earned every penny doing the jobs I cannot do to the right standard. However, I do my own anchor and mooring warp splices because that is a waste of his expensive time!
 
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You can talk all the gloom and doom you like, but you seem to have a fundamental lack of understanding of basic economics.

[/ QUOTE ]Sadly, it's you who has not yet realised what is happening in the world. Ignore it at your peril. Like the Borg, we must learn to adapt.

Charging enough money to feed a family of four for several days, as payment for splicing a rope, will not work. Think 'one meal', that's closer. Forget 'my overheads'. Revisit.

OK, so you don't agree. Let's leave it at that -- we cannot demonstrate what is going to happen next, here. It is all forecasting. It just happens that mine has been remarkably accurate, especially on the day that the Prime Minister and ex-Chancellor stated that he had not seen this crisis coming....yet I have been forecasting it here, on ybw, since 2003/4.
 
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£7 per hour is more like it, and that's what's going to happen. Those who do not adapt will not have an income (at least, not doing simple things like splicing). There are some massive adjustments coming in Blighty.

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It is funny how those at the bottom are always expected to take less whilst those at the top expect more and more isn't it.

I doubt many make £60-70 an hour splicing rope.

£15 - 20 an hour more likely and I would expect to pay £10-15 pounds for anchor/rope splice.

£7 an hour self employed and you are not really making a living by the time you cover overheads, all the ****ering around time giving quotes etc. Public Liability insurance "Professional Fees" etc. a vehicle, Holiday pay, sickness pay. (or are we expected to use a handcart and doff our caps?)
 
We shall see. I am not going to continue to repeat my warnings every time this comes up. I shall sit in my own little make-believe world, in which my wealth has actually been increasing daily for the last few years as a result of an investment strategy based on my predictions. My capital is actually worth very significantly more today than it was a year ago....I am gaining by investing according to my forecasts. Most people seem to be losing -- that doesn't make me happy, it is very sad. Many of my family and best friends have lost heavily and are very depressed....but they didn't listen. Very sad. They thought that this was going to be a 'pullback' for a while. Sadly, not so.
 
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It is funny how those at the bottom are always expected to take less whilst those at the top expect more and more isn't it.

[/ QUOTE ]I think there's an attitude issue here. Nobody is 'expecting' anything. You can charge £1000 for a splice if you like, and good luck to you...genuinely. We both know that isn't going to work for you, though, so you charge what people will pay. I am saying that we are getting to a stage where few will pay anything for a splice (will DIY) and those that do will expect to pay far less than is being charged right now. There is no 'expect' or 'top' or 'bottom'. Now, it could be that I am wrong. That's possible. On the other hand, I could be right. If I am, it might pay to think through the implications.....it isn't entirely negative. After all, if someone will only pay you £7 for a splice then the man who fixes your car, supplies your food, etc., will all expect less, too. It's called 'deflation'. Actually, I expect monetary hyper-inflation causing prices to rise set against a reduction in reward, in real terms (i.e. constant money) for one's efforts. Broadly, this will be across the board, across all levels of income and status, though some groups will suffer less (politicians, maybe?). So that £7 (say) might actually become £700 but that £700 will only buy what £7 will today in materials though labour will be devalued so your £700 (was £7) will buy you a splice. I hope that is clear (I mean I hope you understood what I am trying to say)?
 
Intresting discusion. My 1500 sqft workshop COSTS me £11/hr to run. That means I have to earn 20k/ a year before I even start to run my boat, let alone pay the mortgage, clothe the family or even feed ourselves.
We run on VERY slim margins, but am happy to say we are booked solid through to June 2010. I would probably take about half an hour to do that splice, so the charge woukld be £12.50 plus VAT. It would probably take me another half an hour to raise an invoice and process the paperwork.............
 
Lemain,

Can I just say that I sympathise with all the people you are winding up on here - you do come over as somewhat arrogant and very full of yourself.

However, I do have a lot of sympathy with what you are saying. Anyone who thinks they can charge themselves out as a splicer for £60 - £70 an hour for a job that anyone can do themselves in considerably less than an hour after downloading the diagram from the web is living in cloud cuckoo land. It would only be worthwhile if your own time was worth a minimum of £70 an hour and you planned on having no spare/free time at all.

A limited market I would have thought.


- W
 
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Next contestant please.

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I'll be the next contestant.

Tranona. You,ve hit the nail on the head. Spot on.

Everyone who is moaning about the cost of a professionally done 8 plait to chain splice should try it themselves. It takes time to learn how to do it to a standard.
The splice in question may easily have taken an hour to do if the wrong size rope was supplied with the chain (not stated in the original post). Even when the correct size chain and rope are used it can still take over half an hour even when you're up to speed. It's not just a case of threading the strands up the chain links. you've got to prepare the rope first the finish it off at the end of the splice - which takes time. To add insult to injury the original splicer was not even able to make any money out of selling his own rope and chain, he was asked to splice rope and chain brought to him.
I personnally think that everyone who is moaning about these costs should try running a business themselves to see what the overheads are like, then they would understand why an 8 strand to chain splice costs what it does, and it's not extortionate, it is the standard hourly rate across many industries for skilled labour.
And people who are comparing a 3 strand eye splice with a 8 strand to chain splice------don't. There is no comparison in time spent doing them. Any proficient splicer can do a 3 strand eye splice in the blink of an eye, especially if they are not whipping it first or dogging it last.
In my estimation these two splices would have taken an hour to do. £30 and hour + vat is VERY reasonable. Try asking a Solicitor or accountant to charge your £30 an hour, they'd be smiling at you as they showed you the door.

I don't know where some people are getting £60 to £70 an hour from. ------Two splices one hour £30 + vat ----- that's what the man charged.
 
David - I think this is where you part company with the rest of the world on here! Most people earn a living from their own efforts, whether it be splicing a rope or being an accountant or lawyer, or doctor - or dare I say even a politician.

I f you have got yourself into a position where you do not need to work, but can live off your investment decisions, then jolly good luck to you. Just do not try and compare yourself to the normal, nor tell us we are all idiots for not being able to do what you think you can do! And remember that contrarians can be just as wrong as anybody else - only the timing is different!
 
Many of the 'Rip Off' replies have ignored the fact that the skilled worker has taken time to learn his trade his reward should take that into account too.
A little story I was told when serving my apprenticeship many years ago at £3.50/week.
A man brought his car to the garage with a fault in the engine. The mechanic lifted the bonnet and listened to the noise. her went to the workshop collected a hammer, tapped the engine.

The charge was £1.00(today that would be £15).
The customer said, 'but you only tapped the engine'.
Well said the mechnic;'yes it was six pence for doing it and nineteen shillings for knowing what to.
 
This is a different argument. Yes, an average practical person like me can do these splices and would not dream of paying anybody to do them. However, many people are money rich and time or skills poor so are prepared to pay. The rigger's time costs the same whether he is doing a simple splice or making up standing rigging which very few DIY people would tackle. I know some do, but if it were that easy you would not find riggers in every boatyard or marina in the country!

Same principle applies to painting. Most people are quite happy doing their own antfouling, but few would contemplate doing a high class hull repaint. Same labour cost per hour though! Just that the typical customer values the topside paint job more highly!

In my economics classes I talk about maximising the return for scarce resources. Think about it.
 
Stewart - No, I don't live from investment income though this isn't the place to air my personal finances. My point is that the capital I have invested is getting more valuable while most peoples' is declining in value. That isn't going to make me Mr Popular -- nobody likes to see someone doing better than they are, fact of life. But, if they would only have listened and not scoffed, they could have at least got out of equities before the plunge.

For those same people to scoff at my predictions today as 'doom and gloom' seems rather silly, given my forecasting record versus the accepted view.

I don't agree with your comment about being 'contrarian'. Yes, my views were contrary to the accepted wisdom for years but only because accepted wisdom was utterly wrong. A true contrarian investor invests contrary to accepted opinion. Most lose. Today, many (or most?) mainstream economists have started to think much like me so I am not 'contrary' right now. I am not a contrarian. I am a fundamentalist; I look at the economic fundamentals and decide what I think is going to happen. It was going to be a monumental crash, that was obvious in 2003. It started in 2007 and we are really getting into it in 2009. 2010 or 2011 might see the bottom but it could take longer and go deep. The more governments stimulate debt and borrowing (the present policy) the deeper and longer will be the depression.
 
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Many of the 'Rip Off' replies have ignored the fact that the skilled worker has taken time to learn his trade his reward should take that into account too.

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Thanks for mention the fact about the years' spent learning the skills - I, and I would think many others appreciate your comment.
However the £30 and hour + vat does not take into account that expeience.
Most of it covers Business running expenses (premises rent, business insurance, advertising, commercial premise's rates, gas, elec. commercial rubbish disposal, premise's water rates etc.) I could go on if I thought harder.
We don't see much out of that £30 an hour.
But thanks for mentioning it anyway.
 
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Thanks for mention the fact about the years' spent learning the skills - I, and I would think many others appreciate your comment.
However the £30 and hour + vat does not take into account that expeience.
Most of it covers Business running expenses (premises rent, business insurance, advertising, commercial premise's rates, gas, elec. commercial rubbish disposal, premise's water rates etc.) I could go on if I thought harder.
We don't see much out of that £30 an hour.
But thanks for mentioning it anyway

[/ QUOTE ] What a load of utter bilge. I did my first rope/chain splice in less than one hour following a diagram I downloaded from the internet. We have hung off it for five years' anchoring now. Splicing requires no premises, no business infrastructure and no other expenses - unless of course you have a very deluded idea of your worth to society as master of the splice.

I don't think anyone is going to survive the recession with that attitude.

- W
 
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There are some massive adjustments coming in Blighty.

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True, but not all one way. This is fairly off-topic but bear in mind that there are some massive adustments underway at the other end of the spectrum too - workers in the cheaper economies aspire to our standards of living and eventually their economy will not support any more increase in the size of the labour pool which makes them so cheap just now - It is self-limiting. Eventually the global market must level out to something approaching a level playing field.
 
I totally agree about adjustments in the producer countries. Whether or not we will see anything approaching a global level playing field is another matter; London isn't even a level playing field. During late 2007 and 2008, when people started to wake up to the fact of a coming recession, most economists were betting on the East -- China and India in particular -- continuing growth with the West picking up business from them. Some still argue that way. I have argued from the outset that it is still early days for Chindia and that the recession in the West will reverse growth in those countries. China is still positive today, but it has fallen dramatically and the first derivative - the rate of change of growth - is strongly negative. It becomes very complicated (for me, anyway) to try to forecast the relationship between wages in the East and West.

The most reliable indicator I can find is the hours labour required for common essentials. How many hours labour to feed a family of four at home, with basic but decent supermarket food? How many hours labour to pay to get to work and the children to school? Heat the house for a day (annual average). Clothe the family. This is basic stuff. The housing element is much more difficult, especially in the UK where massive home loans are common, house prices are unaffordable (still) and rented accommodation is horribly expensive.

Imagine that we were to postulate a severe, extreme recession....about as deep as it could go without loss of social cohesion (though that is happening today, in France) . I postulate that a poor man's labour might pay for the daily needs of a poor household - food, clothing, heating, housing and cost of travel to work and school. No provision for holidays, pensions, or healthcare - this is a poor man. In pre-industrial times, food did not require energy. Today, we could not feed the population of Great Britain without intensive agriculture, processing, storage, distribution and retailing. Clothes can last a long time especially if you don't use the washing machine (believe me, my shirts, socks and pants can last several years now, the same is true of glasses and crockery without a dishwasher). I suggest that the poor man's labour will be divided roughly 1/3 food and clothing, 1/3 fuels and 1/3 housing costs. This gives us roughly 3 hours labour to feed and clothe the family for a day. Clothing costs could be very modest - utilitarian clothes not fashion - so let's work with 3 hours labour to buy enough food to feed the poor man, his wife, and his two children. With more children the wife would necessarily have to take paid employment or she might chose to, to remove the family from the poverty baseline. It should be possible to feed the poor family a good, balanced diet, at today's supermarket prices (but not premium products) for £10 per day. I'm out of touch with UK prices and we don't buy food from that end of the spectrum, so I am happy to be corrected about the £10 -- but out of season fruit and veg, prime cuts, processed pies, desserts, cakes, sweets, snacks and biscuits might have to be an occasional treat, not something to put in the trolley every trip.

So this gives us £10 for three hours labour, or £3 per hour. Interesting how close that is to the Minimum Wage given that we have made no allowance for Income, NI or Council Tax! I think that the poor man in this example would need to have a full exemption from taxes...our poor man is as poor as we will 'allow' anyone to be, while working. i.e. the New National Minimum Wage.

On this basis, assuming that a poor man could be trained to do repetitive jobs such as splicing (if there were to be a demand under these conditions, which is doubtful) then the splice should cost between £1.50 to £3.00 plus modest overheads necessary to keep the work-flow coming through to the worker. Say £3 to £6.

Of course, that's not what any business could afford to charge today. How could you put your workers on that pay scale?! You would have to pay taxes, as well. Businesses today have to operate in today's environment not tomorrow's. If one has even a glimpse of how the future might look one is in a better position to adapt as things change.

The key to success will be in adapting early, not later. Most firms will increase borrowings to maintain, as far as possible, the status quo, in the hope of 'riding it out'. That will bankrupt the small businessman. It is different for the General Motors, Fords and Jaguars, as they have the ear of Presidents and Prime Ministers but Jones & Co. doesn't. Jones will be encouraged to borrow; low interest rates, easy terms. But Jones will probably be asked to put his home up as collateral. This is all one vast hopeless confidence trick by governments, out of desperation, to turn the clock back. Natural clocks cannot be turned back; cycles have to allowed to complete.

The down half-cycle will have a time period of several years, most probably. I would say three to three and a half years from Jan 2008. So we should (I hope) have bottomed in Jan 2011 or Summer 2011 and then things should start to get better. Conditions in the UK may never return to today's level of almost universal affluence but we will all be feeling better -- things will be getting better. Meanwhile, we have to recognise this storm for what it is, shutter the portlights, reduce canvas, hank-on the storm jib, secure the vessel, and get ourselves fit and ready for a bit of a rough ride. What the Government would have us do is pretend that the weather is going to be fine -- keep full canvas flying and leave the vessel unsecured for heavy weather. Good for the Government at this time, but not good for us.
 
An interesting thread, but I would suggest a rip-off. Many years ago I did my first multiplait to chain slice. I downloaded a diagram from the internet, and completed the splice in less than 30 minutes. It is really very easy unskilled labour. For 6 years my boat was reguarly anchored in all weahers, held by this splice.
 
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Many of the 'Rip Off' replies have ignored the fact that the skilled worker has taken time to learn his trade his reward should take that into account too.
A little story I was told when serving my apprenticeship many years ago at £3.50/week.
A man brought his car to the garage with a fault in the engine. The mechanic lifted the bonnet and listened to the noise. her went to the workshop collected a hammer, tapped the engine.

The charge was £1.00(today that would be £15).
The customer said, 'but you only tapped the engine'.
Well said the mechnic;'yes it was six pence for doing it and nineteen shillings for knowing what to.

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Forgive me for noticing he charged 1 pound, but detailed 19/6d ...... ??
 
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