Powerboat wash in the Solent & Southampton Water

[Bergman]

Re: Powerboat wash in the Solent & Southampton Water

I have some degree of sympathy but I think you are fighting a losing battle.

The Red Funnel jobbies have a living to earn, and if they slowed down to no-wash speed for every small boat on the Solent they would simply not provide the service they have to provide. If you consider the density of traffic and the number of crossings they make its something of a tribute that there are so few accidents involving them.

I have usually found that power boats at speed make relatively little wash. When they are planing they don't move much water at all. My main worry is whether they have seen me or not. The worst things for wash in may part of the world are pilot boats - semi displacement and lots of power - they do make waves.

But thats the point really - If you go to sea you have to expect waves - from whatever source.

 

[Guest]

Re: Powerboat wash in the Solent & Southampton Water

In a 16 footer I have done 6, but I guess that others have been up to 8 or 9 on your list. Surely it is a question of (a) consideration for others and (b) good seamanship.

If other vessels follow (a) and (b), then the 16 footer is probably at a similar level of seaworthiness to quite a large sized power boat. Dinghies can handle quite tough conditions and they aren't going to run out of fuel etc.

You're not going to sink a 16 footer with wash sized waves (especially as dinghies normally have buoyancy tanks etc. so are unsinkable, unlike most power boats), but you could cause a nasty accident - cause someone to fall overboard, or an involuntary gybe that knocks someone unconscious, or both. This is nothing to do with seaworthiness, just politeness and common sense on the part of others.

 

[Joe_Cole]

I must admit that some of the responses on this thread look as if they are saying "We can, so we will" rather than making a considered response to the original point which I read as being a call for consideration. Of course a boat should be right for the situation it's being used in but if we've reached the stage where a 16ft boat shouldn't be used on the Solent then I give up.

These arguements are so familiar; they went on for years up at Windermere and in the end the authorities felt obliged to introduce a speed limit. Maybe it will happen on the Solent.....

 

[[2574]]

Re: Powerboat wash in the Solent & Southampton Water

Kev,

Yes I hear your point - but my point is that we mustn't exclude someone simply because in your opinion his craft is not up to the job (and in your opinion he needs a sooped up super dooper jobby like yours before he should be let out on the water). It might be the owners opinion that his "C5" is up to the job.

I personally believe that middle lane drivers should not be allowed on the M3 between the hours of 0300 and 2300 because they don't have the necessary car and/or skills to drive their cars safely; but I don't have that power - and it's just as well because I'd ban them! Same principle applies.

 

[tcm]

Re: disagree (except with the M3 bit)

nope i don't think your argument or anaogies are sound: the badly driven car on the M3 (with which i wd support you) is nevertheless capable of the conditions. Car/boat analogies are contentious anyway - the difference between the largest Maybach and smallest Smart is a factor of just two. Some boats on the solent are 8 foot dinghies, others are container ships many hundreds of feet long.

The issue KevB raised is the suitability of the craft, regardless of the seamanship of others. I agree, altho of course i (and kevb, i believe) recognises that everyone should be considerate.

But nonetheless,there is a point at which a 16footer isn't the right craft for the job. I mean if 16 feet is ok - then is praps 12 feet ok too? can we agree that noodling around in an 8foot dinghy with 2hp motor in the solent is a bit daft? What about 9ft, or 10? Yep, ok in parts of the solent, not in others, surely, and the same applies to the 16footer, imho.

I would say that setting out in a 16footer and relying heavily if not entirely upon the good seasmanship of others as the originator of the post seems to do ...is in itself Bad Seamanship!

Provided that others obey the rules of the road - a key aspect of boating is that YOU are responsible for the saftey of your craft. Only common courtesy - but notably NOT any part of the IRPCS- limits the issue of wash. It may be awkward, infuriating, annoying and so on and i try to avoid wash of others and making wash myself on powered craft BUT if your crew, your activities (up the mast etc) or boat can't take wash that is likely to occur - it simply should be somewhere else. Again, i do not condone the thoughtlessness of many powerboaters - but it is a factor that good seamanship requires to be factored into a decsison to set out in partucliar conditons on a particular stretch of water in a particular craft.


all imho

 

[Joe_Cole]

Re: disagree (except with the M3 bit)

Nothing wrong with a 16ft dinghy on the Solent.
Plenty wrong with inconsiderate boaters.

Open and shut case to me!

 

[Solitaire]

Re: disagree (except with the M3 bit)

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing wrong with a 16ft dinghy on the Solent.
Plenty wrong with inconsiderate boaters.



[/ QUOTE ]

You're right! But if the 16ft dinghy puts itself in contentious situations then surely, it becomes an "inconsiderate boater"?

The Solent is an exceptionally busy commercial area, it has clearly defined channels with clearly identified areas of concern. No matter what size yacht/dinghy/powerboat (as in leisure vessel - say under 20 metres) moves within those areas must end up being the stand on vessel! To have a 16ft dinghy complain about the Red Jets I find amazing!!! It should keep out the way! I was out on Sunday heading towards Poole, Christchurch Bay had a heavy fog bank, it was dense, I travel from the Solent to Poole regularly but even after punching in a known waypoint which would take me out of harms way I still decided to turn back to the Solent. On entering thru Hurst I was amazed to see a 16-18ft powerboat coming out, it had it's canopy up, quick observation was such that no life jackets were being worn, the guy was hanging onto the wheel with grim determination! Where was he heading? Maybe Christchurch, maybe Poole, I hope he made it! My view was he was out of his depth ( excuse the pun)! The freedom of the water is of course a liberty - did that make the little boat's journey sensible? NO! Does it make putting a 16 ft dingy in the way of major commercial traffic? No! Does it mean that a thumping great powerboat worth a few squid should power past a small 16 ft dingy? No! The questions could go on, but at the end of the day all users of the water should respect it, and others who use it.

 

[Nickel]

Re: disagree (except with the M3 bit)

I've done a fair bit of canoeing and dinghy sailing in the solent, and bigger boat sailing.

The very idea of being caught between two fast reds makes my hair stand on end - but the question has to be - how could you let yourself get into that situation in the first place. In my book - whatever I'm on - I try and give the red funnel boys, and the wightlink guys at either end, a very wide berth. For their sake and mine.

 

[tome]

Re: disagree (except with the M3 bit)

I have to reluctantly agree with everything you posted here. But there will be other times.

 

[Joe_Cole]

Re: disagree (except with the M3 bit)

[quote
You're right! But if the 16ft dinghy puts itself in contentious situations then surly, it becomes an "inconsiderate boater"?

.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely right! Though I simply don't know if that applies in this case. I haven't been to the Solent for some years but I can envisage the situation where a small boat with it's slow speed can, through no fault of it's own, end up in a compromising position with high speed boats. As a general point though I fully agree with you; small boats can be handled just as inconsiderately as bigguns!

 

[oldharry]

Re: disagree (except with the M3 bit)

[ QUOTE ]
As a general point though I fully agree with you; small boats can be handled just as inconsiderately as bigguns!

[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely right! Try taking a large craft past certain Sailing clubs in Chi when the Mirror fleet is coming out....

Red Funnel, Wightlink etc are commercial enterprises which have schedules to maintain. To them time is money. It costs not only time but fuel to slow down and accelerate, so why should they? Having been in that position myself as a commercial skipper I had to ensure my boats arrived safely and on time. The presence of a number of people out on the water to enjoy themselves was simply an added hazard, as their actions were often very unpredictable. If, as frequently happened, a leisure boat failed to give way when it should, or made an illegal turn across my course then it had to be dealt with a) in a manner which would stand up to subsequent enquiry, b) with the minimum of disruption to schedules.

These guys simply do not have time to slow down or take avoiding action except in emergency and are planning a course through say the Cowes racing fleet which will get them safely through with the minimum of delay without breaching Colregs. At 30+kts that takes some doing!

Its down to the rest of us to ensure our we and our boats are adequate for the waters we are sailing in. And that includes preparation for whatever hazards we are likely to meet - including the wash from HS ferries and the like. If the boat and its crew is not up to it then it should not be there - whether mid Solent or mid Atlantic or the local boating pond!

And like any small boat sailor in the Solent I too have done my share of cursing as ferry wash knocked everything on the floor! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[duncan]

Re: and while we are all violently agreeing...

that 16ft boat could as easily be a bowrider with 150hp engine around calshot, wind over tide, and it probably shouldn't be there either - ie it should take efforts to avoid the area/conditions at the time! A well found 16ft sailing craft may well be better equiped to handle such conditions.

 

[Evadne]

Re: Powerboat wash in the Solent & Southampton Water

I understand, my point was only that the description "16 foot dinghy" covers a multitude of craft. I had to leave the discussion last night and I think I'd agree with most of the points made: at the end of the day it is the wind and waves we have to be able cope with, regardless of how they are generated and really, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the generators. That's one of the main differences between Southampton water and the M3: on a motorway the only real hazards are other vehicles, on the water it is the "road" itself. Keeping out of the way of larger boats is another matter, and given that most small dinghies move no slower than my 29' sailing boat, most of the time, I don't see that this is in itself a problem.

I have noticed that whatever size of boat you are standing on, anything smaller looks less safe, or unsafe. For that reason I would not want to pre-judge how safe a craft is purely in terms of its LOA. A properly handled canoe, for instance, can cope with far worse white water than many larger boats. Most PWCs are less than 4m long. And so on.

 

[Lakesailor]

Re: Powerboat wash in the Solent & Southampton Water

[ QUOTE ]
Most PWCs are less than 4m long.

[/ QUOTE ]

But apparently their pilots' personal equipment is much longer.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Re: Powerboat wash in the Solent & Southampton Water

Or just their eggo

 

[Peppermint]

Re: The publc good????

I agree with much of what you say. I'm always amazed at the number of people who like to take their sails down or hoist them at the Hamble cardinal mark for example. Sending people up the mast is best done in flat water, or with sail pulling, but raceboats think nothing of it at anytime.

Powerboats are winning this battle in two ways these days. There's more of them and we seem to get more windless days. If it's blowing a bit the wash issue regulates itself. The Solent/Southampton Water sailing area is a busy. We know thats the case. Somedays it's wash is the issue, somedays it racing fleets or commercial traffic and some days it's all of this stuff. The only answer is to use the bits that other people don't use or sail on days when everybodies at work. It's very quiet out there on a February night.


The only answer to powerboat wash is a change in design. As long as blunt hulls with big horses are built wash will remain a problem. Slowing em down doesn't really seem the answer. They make as much wash at 6 knots as at 20 knots, or so it seems.

The Red Jets are improving through design. Red Jet 4, the latest model, is larger yet makes less wash. They are all piloted, as are the ferries, by rejects from a kamikazi school but hey it's a tough and congested operating area. I don't think they're running fast for their customers satisfaction though. It's got more to do with bottom line.

That all being said. Powerboat wash really gets on my wick.

 

[Edward_Hughes]

Re: Powerboat wash in the Solent & Southampton Water

Light the blue touch-paper and retire! It looks like I stirred up a chain reaction of strong feelings and opinions, not to say predicable prejudices. Perhaps I can be permitted a couple of final notes:

My “small (16ft) sailboat” is no dinghy, sometimes in light winds I wish it was, perhaps one of those excellent and far travelling Wayfarers. It is a small centreboard ballasted dayboat/overnighter designed and built by myself. Within the limitations imposed by her size she is safe and seaworthy, needs force 3-4 to get into her stride and sails herself happily on a beat reefed in much stronger winds. I carry VHF, GPS and flares, full charts other references for the Solent and adjacent waters. I sail most weekends during the year, weather permitting. I gain a great deal of enjoyment from planning to use the winds and tides to advantage, achieving my day’s objective, be it Bembridge, Newtown, Keyhaven or wherever and of coping with whatever the weather delivers outside the forecast conditions. So far she has proved well up to whatever nature and the Red Jets have delivered.

For the benefit of ‘tcm’ – (Bit selfish: alternative view) I probably did read lots of books about giving way, rules of the road and blah, blah during my 29 years as a seaman officer in the RN. Can’t seem to forget it all, somehow.

For the benefit of KevB I would certainly find it acceptable to use a properly-equipped 16 ft boat of the right type on inland or coastal waters and even crossing the Channel with a good weather forecast. Wayfarers have crossed the North Sea and the Irish Sea; Uffa Fox crossed the Channel to Brittany in a sailing canoe between the wars; Drascombe Luggers have roamed the world – I could go on. Where does the Solent fit into his list?

To return to the Solent, I take no pleasure in covering what is usually the first leg of my wanderings, from Hamble to Calshot if intending to go West. Going East is much less of a problem. At some point one has to cross the main channel and I have never encountered any safety problems in doing this. I keep my eyes peeled and keep radio watch on VTS. I always tack positively away from the channel if there is any doubt about making it across before the next large vessel and also apply this principle to dealing with the normal Red Funnel ferries whether they are in the channel or outside. I have an ‘inboard’ outboard to beat a rapid retreat should the wind die at the critical moment. All I ask for is the same consideration

Red Jets are unfortunately another matter owing to their unpredictability. Although heading in the general direction of their destinations they do not travel in grooves but dart about avoiding other traffic rather than making seamanlike adjustments to their speed. They are likely to be encountered anywhere between the 5 metre depth contours from Calshot to the docks and back. It is at the extremities of their navigable waters that they cause most havoc with small craft and the shores.

I certainly do not consider that I engineered any of the situations I have described. My main aim is attain more peaceful waters A.S.A.P. The double whammey of one on each side occurred because both Red Jets and the Red Osprey passing each other outside the main channel which was occupied by 2 passing large vessels. To avoid Red Jets would mean avoiding that area altogether and I certainly do not intend to do that. It is they and their companions in the quest for knots that are out of tune with the normally harmonious co-existence between commercial and leisure traffic in these busy waters. This is mainly due to sensible application of the rules used with courtesy and understanding by all concerned.

If anything Red Funnel have engineered their own situation by introducing a commercial enterprise that relies on darting at 30 kts through congested waters. I noted that in last Saturday’s sudden thick fog, they had to slow down, if so I hope they did not loose too much revenue that day.

Thank you all for your responses, have a good season, those of you who are not still painting and scrubbing. I you are, may I suggest down-sizing.

 

[KevB]

Re: Powerboat wash in the Solent & Southampton Water

Hi Ed,

Never meant to imply your particular boat wasn't capable, if I remember correctly the guy who rowed the Atlantic didn't have a boat much bigger?

Without knowing the limitations I was suggesting that if things seem that bad maybe it was beyond it's limits. For instance I wouldn't fancy being in a small wooden skiff with a Red Jet anywhere near me where as a racing catamaran of the same size I would imagine wouldn't be a problem.

Totally accept boats of all sizes can enjoy the Solent and when it comes to power boats mine is on the smaller end of the scale.

From reading these forums I have learnt that sailing boats generally prefer to receive wash up the "chuff" and I generally go out of my way to pass boats from behind leaving as much distance between us as possible. Sometimes it turns out to be the lesser of two evils, it may seem to you that I have changed direction and am now closer to you than I need be but maybe I am altering course to minimise my wash to one of your fellow sailors and sharing the wash between the two of you /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The Solent is probably like no other place with so many different craft trying to enjoy the same thing in a limited space. I regularly look to the heavens when I'm trying to leave Chichester harbour, having to constantly stop/start/reverse because of the racing going on with sailing boats but I wouldn't consider being anywhere else in the UK.

As long as no one is being reckless or endangering others needlessly I think we have to accept the Solent as it is, busy.....

Happy sailing.

 

[Sans Bateau]

Re: Powerboat wash in the Solent & Southampton Water

Ed

Very good, welcome to the forum. Throw the fox into the chicken run then stand back and watch!

You mention Wayfarers, I learned to sail in a Wayfarer around Paxos in the Greek Islands. Sailing one day with only a little wind (it must have been the morning), the sea was very smooth. About five miles away one of the inter island ferries was putting up a wake, some 10 to 15 mins later it reached us, still running about 1.5 mtrs high! We sailed iinto it and then surfed down the other side! Great fun. Its a shame that there was only the one, the echo off the nearby shore was very broken up and confussed.

 

[Edward_Hughes]

Re: The publc good????

At last a reasoned response! I have to admit to disrobing off Hamble point before entering the river under power but I usually go just north to avoid the congestion. Even I was annoyed a couple of weeks ago when a 707 returning from a race insisted on tacking up the river (against the Hamble rules) and effectively blocking anyone from proceding upstream due to the frequency and angles of his tacks. I also enjoy a good wave from the right direction, however generated. Regarding powerboat design, the real racing powerboats leave little wash but the leisure craft seem to be designed to meet fashion criteria like wide flat sterns for bathing and bridge upon bridge in layers extending ever upwards. Whatever happened to the straight and level running designs of ... (sorry I'm betraying my age.