Potential purchase - Lack of use - advice for a couple of areas

[5teve]

In our never ending quest for a larger boat, given limited budget and limited availability here in Perth, Australia we seemed to have narrowed our selection down to 2 boats - they are both from the same local manufacturer and are both 33ft - but actually just shy of 37ft - but that is where the similarity ends. - different layout, engine, fittings etc etc.. if we could combine the 2... perfect! but we cant so its going to be a case of best value, best compromise and what we deem may be less trouble overall.

So we went for a second viewing on Boat 1 - 2002 - Iveco powered - better original fitout - 2 cabins (which is both good and bad as the vee is smaller and saloon area is smaller) we went over it with a fine tooth comb and its obvious in areas that lack of use has set in -
Winch housing (under deck) is white and furry - anchor chain isnt much better!
Engine frame galvanising is flaking at the water pump end of the engine (I think there may have been a leak) but its a solid frame so not really a worry..
Rudder gland is pretty rusted up (steering is still very light) so will need cleaning / replacing and is weeping a bit.
Tank water smells apparently - I'll assume a good clean and change of pipes may resolve this?
Oil leak - coming from an unidentified part at the gearbox end of the engine via what looks to be a weeping banjo fitting. Doesnt look too serious - but looks like its been doing it a while.

The one that really bothers me is the racor filter - its a single turbine version as per http://ph.parker.com/us/17583/en/fuel-filter-water-separator-turbine-series - and the glass bowl is full of what looks to be algae. I'll also assume due to lack of use and fuel treatment the 2x fuel tanks are likely to be pretty dirty internally - what are my options for:-

Cleaning the tanks (not sure of access at top)
Cleaning the existing fuel - without removing 3-400l off the boat (its on a swing mooring)
probability of fuel filters being ruined?

I'm thinking if I can shut the tanks off from each other i could pump from one into the other filtering as I go, to empty the tank - see if I can clean the empty tank and then do vice versa - does that sound reasonable and what sort of system could I use for filtering the fuel?

Any other ideas would be gratefully received!

Steve

 

[nauticalnomad]

No boats is perfect.. I have rebuilt mine in the past 7 years spending what i paid for it..
But now its setup sort of how i like it.

 

[5teve]

Thanks Nomad

I understand that.. our current boat is far from perfect - Looking for the least worst boat - and Just trying to work out what may stop me from taking up to its new home should we eventually end up with this one - a trip of around 80km - 2-3 hours - I figured a lot of gunk in the filter may cause this..

Steve

 

[Anthony]

I am also in Perth and appreciate the poor choice and terrible condition most boats are kept at. If it has fuel bug then it will need a proper clean out, changing the filter would be the first thing I would do. Have you tried taking it for a test ride, open her WOT and see how she responds? on a swing mooring the contents of the tank would at least have been stirred up with the constant motion so should be similar to how the trip home would be, but just becuase it runs for 10 mins doesnt say it wont clog the filter after 30 mins etc. If you do go ahead with it change the filter before leaving and have spares on board to change during the trip. Of course if its bad then it is always possible that the injectors are not in great shape either.

What would concern me more is that if an owner has let that happen to a boat, then what else is also overdue maintainence, chances are oil has not been changed, and issues in hull were just painted over instead of fixed etc.

Where is it and where are you trying to get it to?

Anthony

 

[5teve]

Thanks Anthony...

I was wondering if there were any other Perth / Australian Forumites.. Thanks for your comments.

The boat is in Rockingham - Havent done a sea trial yet apart from a pootle from the jetty to the mooring at around 11kts - if we go for it, it will be coming back up to Mindarie - not too bad and something we do in our tinnie sometimes. Just dont want to be getting stuck half way!

Engine runs seemingly well - no vibration - a little steam from the exhaust which should be normal i think - a bit whiffy on startup but likely to be crap fuel and wasnt hot - no really visible smoke. Temp gauge is showing its running cool, so could be sender, gauge or thermostat. it starts very easily

Oil has been changed apparently - as have the filters (they look new) - The boats gets used as in the owner goes over to it and tinkers / chills on the weekends he is back - but doesn't appear to really use it out on the water. Still trying to get an idea of the hours he has put on it.

It was kept on the hardstand at henderson up until november - again apparently

Winch - he never uses - I think thats probably the reason it and the chain are rough... but again - its fixable and will reflect in the offer if we get that far.

Fuel system I think really just needs a good clean - I have no idea how old the fuel is.. but it is definitely bug ridden - if purchased - a few filters will be taken along with containers to drain off the muck. If the algae will come out of the drain. The tanks are stainless.. so may make cleaning a bit easier?

Purchase and offer value will be completely dependent on full engine inspection and sea trial in 'weather' - I am fairly mechanical minded (just new to this kind of boat) so mechanical repairs etc don't worry me.. except engine internals and spending excessive money fixing things does. There is history in the file - not much recently but the prior 2 owners - new prop, injector leaks, new riser etc.. even the original engine dyno!

The way I look at it.. every used boat has a risk.. i just have to try an minimize the risk or at least have the means to eliminate the risk should anything happen.

Steve

 

[rafiki_]

5teve, it sounds very much like the fuel system has developed the dreaded fuel bug. This will need more than just a filter change to sort, and the fuel will need cleaning. This is a job that the present owner should do before you hand over your cash, otherwise you could get very frustrated chasing this around.

 

[boatingdave]

It is possible of course that this is just bug in the water separator and the tanks may not be contaminated at all. If you assume that they are, the tanks will need treating and the fuel polished which you can do yourself (I built myself a pump and filter to do this myself) although given how little it costs it may be peace of mind to have it polished anyway by a professional. I would suggest first point is to have the filters cleaned and then take her for a sea trial and you will know quite quickly if it is contamination in the tank or just local. Also don't forget that (to some extent) tanks are self polishing as not all the fuel supplied to the engines is burnt and the excess is returned to the tank after it has already gone through the filters. As some of my friends may add - I used to be paranoid about the dreaded bug and always checked my filters and assumed that a few grains of debris was a disater then I realised what some of the other boaters were coping with (and they really did have diesel bug) so if you treat it and assume you will need to do some filter changes during the initial few trips you may be fine. Luckily you have stainless tanks. On some of the older princesses (and I'm sure 'others') they fitted mild steel tanks which were notorious for rusting (ergo introducing more debris in to the fuel). My point is - find out the facts, it may be little to worry about or it may be something you may need to take direct action over or something in between. Diesel bug is like wallpaper paste, algae in the separator bowl could just be a very local contamination.

 

[Anthony]

Another option would be to pull it out at Henderson dry stack, he has a big truck and trailer so can meet you at any boat ramp if you dont want to take it far via sea, then you could do some work on it there to clean the fuel system (or they can do it for you) before relaunching and taking to Mindarie.

Stainless tanks are easy to clean if you have decent access, if not then Id add decent sized inspection hatches in. I pulled a stainless tank out of a previous boat and steam cleaned it, I am sure there are dedicated checmicals for the job but I found a steam cleaner did a great job providing you can get the nozzle in there and move it around.

I live near Joondalup so not far from Mindarie but keep my boat down on the river at South of Perth Yach Club, I have pulled out at Henderson dry stack a few times to work on it, they are very accomodating and cheaper than the Freo yards for hauling out.

Its sounds like the number of engine hours are only going to be a small part of this story, the age and how often used, and how well maintained seems just as big factors.

It is possible that only the filter bowls are contaminated but personally I would presume the whole fuel system needs a clean until you know otherwise and negeotiate accordingly. Are there any insepction hatches or drain point on the tanks you could use to take a sample of the fuel? Like you I am mechanically minded and do all my own work, but even so I have learnt it takes time away from other things and parts costs soon add up so I'd be adding in a contigency budget in any offer price for other items that are also likley to need work (yet to be discovered) given the evidence you have so far on the way it is maintained. It might also be worth a call to whoever serviced the boat (if he didnt do it himself) to see their opinion.

Good luck and keep us updated.

Anthony

 

[5teve]

5teve, it sounds very much like the fuel system has developed the dreaded fuel bug. This will need more than just a filter change to sort, and the fuel will need cleaning. This is a job that the present owner should do before you hand over your cash, otherwise you could get very frustrated chasing this around.

Hi Rafiki

Wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if it is bug infected.. I'd actually rather use it as a negotiation tool rather than get the owner to fix it.. that way if i get it done, I know how it has been done.. and that its been done properly. its not that I don't trust anyone.. I just don't trust anyone

It is possible of course that this is just bug in the water separator and the tanks may not be contaminated at all. If you assume that they are, the tanks will need treating and the fuel polished which you can do yourself (I built myself a pump and filter to do this myself) although given how little it costs it may be peace of mind to have it polished anyway by a professional. I would suggest first point is to have the filters cleaned and then take her for a sea trial and you will know quite quickly if it is contamination in the tank or just local. Also don't forget that (to some extent) tanks are self polishing as not all the fuel supplied to the engines is burnt and the excess is returned to the tank after it has already gone through the filters. As some of my friends may add - I used to be paranoid about the dreaded bug and always checked my filters and assumed that a few grains of debris was a disater then I realised what some of the other boaters were coping with (and they really did have diesel bug) so if you treat it and assume you will need to do some filter changes during the initial few trips you may be fine. Luckily you have stainless tanks. On some of the older princesses (and I'm sure 'others') they fitted mild steel tanks which were notorious for rusting (ergo introducing more debris in to the fuel). My point is - find out the facts, it may be little to worry about or it may be something you may need to take direct action over or something in between. Diesel bug is like wallpaper paste, algae in the separator bowl could just be a very local contamination.

Thanks Dave.. I dont remember the bowl being that dirty last time we looked, so as he took it for a run before hand.. i assume the muck was stirred up in the tank. Rather stupidly I didnt take note of the fuel level either. My thoughts we either someone to polish or make a simple rig to filter the stuff out. there are a number of points I can draw from for getting fuel out and in. Good to know that stainless tanks are a good thing! I wish it was a few grains - it reminds me of our water feature which has had full sunlight all summer! i'm generally fairly relaxed about stuff like this.. and enjoy the challenge. My time is the biggest challenge owning and running a small business.

Another option would be to pull it out at Henderson dry stack, he has a big truck and trailer so can meet you at any boat ramp if you dont want to take it far via sea, then you could do some work on it there to clean the fuel system (or they can do it for you) before relaunching and taking to Mindarie.

Stainless tanks are easy to clean if you have decent access, if not then Id add decent sized inspection hatches in. I pulled a stainless tank out of a previous boat and steam cleaned it, I am sure there are dedicated checmicals for the job but I found a steam cleaner did a great job providing you can get the nozzle in there and move it around.

I live near Joondalup so not far from Mindarie but keep my boat down on the river at South of Perth Yach Club, I have pulled out at Henderson dry stack a few times to work on it, they are very accomodating and cheaper than the Freo yards for hauling out.

Its sounds like the number of engine hours are only going to be a small part of this story, the age and how often used, and how well maintained seems just as big factors.

It is possible that only the filter bowls are contaminated but personally I would presume the whole fuel system needs a clean until you know otherwise and negeotiate accordingly. Are there any insepction hatches or drain point on the tanks you could use to take a sample of the fuel? Like you I am mechanically minded and do all my own work, but even so I have learnt it takes time away from other things and parts costs soon add up so I'd be adding in a contigency budget in any offer price for other items that are also likley to need work (yet to be discovered) given the evidence you have so far on the way it is maintained. It might also be worth a call to whoever serviced the boat (if he didnt do it himself) to see their opinion.

Good luck and keep us updated.

Anthony

Thanks Anthony

I'm totally unsure on the access.. but i'm fairly sure the tanks - although easy to detach from the hull wont come out without either significant removal of parts from the engine or complete removal of the engine! - they are level with the engine and straddled either side - approx 250l each and not sure if baffled (would make life easier to clean if not) as they are custom made for the boat - it may just be a case of removing the exhaust pipe.. and extracting from the deck hatch, but I think it would be tight or impossible to do. I should have looked for access hatches. The actual room around the engine is amazingly large - just getting something that bulky out.. would be interesting

Are you on about the dry stack at henderson (aquastack)?? they apparently cant tow a boat this size as its about 37ft overall. It may just sneak in under the 8t limit tho. if they do lift boats out tho.. it could be a good option for getting stuff sorted prior to bringing it back - i'd rather sail (drive) back up the coast so I could start to get a feel for the handling etc. We are in Kinross, and would prefer it local to work on, but henderson isnt too bad distance wise.

your right about the engine hours.. i think they will only play a small factor for me, but a big factor for price offered - its done just shy of 5500 hours - but I think, and cannot verify that it had around 4000 when installed into the boat as a recon motor and the gauges came with it - and thats based on research done not the owner. I don't think there will be too many prospective buyers looking to buy a boat with that many hours without good explanation. Being stood to death scares me more than being used tho!

At this point - im researching my fuel cleaning options and am going to assume the whole tank is riddled with algae! filters are cheap at only $20 each 20,10 or 2 micron so could even use them to filter while running the tanks to empty - what are the chances of crud getting through the filter and into the pump / injectors and trashing them? Full injector overhaul for all 6 including labour would be about $2200 so again something I could factor in.

I know the guys that used to service the boat... but the current owner does his own service (as I would... i'd just have a log book!) so can only go on his word. The company that reconditioned and serviced it for many years will be doing a full engine appraisal prior to anything going through - but the owner wants an offer in place before this happens - which is fine - it will just be subject to sea trail, inspection etc etc.. and any findings will reduce the offer accordingly.

We always have a volvo powered version to fall back to.. but that makes me even more nervous spare parts pricing wise!

Steve

 

[Anthony]

Yes it was aquastack I was talking about, they are inland in an ind estate so all boats have to go in via trailer they dont have a waterside lift so if you said it has been there before then they can move it via trailer. Woodman point is the closest ramp they normally use, maybe they would be happy to trailer it from there but not further? Maybe you could agree a price in principal with the understanding that costs to resolve the fuel issue are expected to be deducted once confirmed, then if you reach agreement have the previous service people inspect and quote for diesel treatment, if you end up doing some or all of it yourself and he agrees to drop by the price the quote or a good portion of it then it could be worth it.

Just remember that the engine is often a good part of the value of a boat of this age, and there will always be another boat along if this one doesn't work out, but fuel bug is not the worst thing to be wrong with a boat as long as the price is right. Would you get it lifted anyway for an out of water survey? I hear you on the Volvo parts pricing, whats the parts availability like for the Iveco, is it just a marinised industrial or truck engine?

 

[5teve]

Thanks Anthony..

I'm not sure it was aquastack... but there was a picture of it going in or out on a big trailer on one of the adverts (now since removed) so you may be right.. possibly local transport they can do.. but further afield maybe not.

I'm basically adding up everything that needs doing to it.. plus things we deem will need replacing but may be functional - and we'll start our offer there. So yes this is a fairly major part of our findings - and i'm sure the engine appraisal will find other stuff too.. but it will all come down to value at the end of the day.. if we still think its good value, we'll take the risk.

Appreciate the info on aquastack as we will be looking for options in the future for taking out, regardless which way we jump.

Re the engine.. apparently the Iveco parts are hard to get depending on where you are.. Perth seems to be one of the places where they are well supported and there appear to be a good number of them in boats around. Tuart Hill Truck Sales are the support guys, and from my short dealings are very very good. They recon'd the engine in 2002 and were the service people in its first years.

Pricing wise Iveco seem very good - full overhaul of existing engine - approx $26k - New overhauled engine installed - approx $28k - overhaul for volvo Tamd71 - roughly 40-45k.. the Iveco is / was based on bus engine - marinised for commercial use - apparently (according to Latestarter1 who knows his stuff) they are designed for several thousand hours a year.. so should be plenty strong. Its certainly a honking great lump of iron under the deck.

Thanks again for the info!

Steve