Post Brexit: VAT Not Paid on Older Boats

[Graham376]

That feels a bit of an “i’m all right Jack” sentiment. Those already semi resident on their boats in the EU will be fine, but anybody a bit younger planning to follow in that route in the near future won’t be so lucky.

Just a statement of fact. If I were UK based when the B time comes, I would be thinking about photocopying someone's EU marina receipt and OCR it, changing the boat name. Whilst I would be very wary of cheating the UK Revenue, I have no such reluctance with the EU. In common with most UK boats, mine is EU VAT paid and I would be truly pissed off if that status were removed by the commission idiots.

P.S. Being Clyde based, I wouldn't think it's too difficult to have your boat in Ireland for a few days to safeguard its status.

 

[nickf]

Graham378
[QUOTE I would be thinking about photocopying someone's EU marina receipt and OCR it, changing the boat name. Whilst I would be very wary of cheating the UK Revenue, I have no such reluctance with the EU. In common with most UK boats, mine is EU VAT paid and I would be truly pissed off if that status were removed by the commission idiots. QUOTE]

As you are probably aware this would be a criminal offence (not the thinking but doing).

 

[Graham376]

[QUOTE I would be thinking about photocopying someone's EU marina receipt and OCR it, changing the boat name. Whilst I would be very wary of cheating the UK Revenue, I have no such reluctance with the EU. In common with most UK boats, mine is EU VAT paid and I would be truly pissed off if that status were removed by the commission idiots. QUOTE]

This would be a criminal offence.

 

[lw395]

I don't think this can be true. If the UK is a third country then when going across the channel you will be leaving the UK and entering the EU. It will require a check-out at a UK port of entry and a check-in at a european port of entry complete with yellow "Q" flag and the same will be true of boats coming from the EU to the UK. The boat paperwork will be checked along with travel documents at the port of entry and the clock will start ticking on the temporary import - you will then have a record of the start date of your temporary import. If you just enter a french port and tie up then you are potentially evading import duty and will face possible seizure of your boat and potential prosecution. The process of checking out and in again every 18 months to avoid import duty is fairly straightforward but all your boat papers will be checked.... ......

This is what can happen at the moment in theory, if you take a boat from Alderney to Cherbourg.
In practice I expect there will be a simple online form to let UK customs know you're leaving the UK and when you expect to return. Loads of yachts cross borders around the world, life goes on.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Just a statement of fact. If I were UK based when the B time comes, I would be thinking about photocopying someone's EU marina receipt and OCR it, changing the boat name. Whilst I would be very wary of cheating the UK Revenue, I have no such reluctance with the EU. In common with most UK boats, mine is EU VAT paid and I would be truly pissed off if that status were removed by the commission idiots.

P.S. Being Clyde based, I wouldn't think it's too difficult to have your boat in Ireland for a few days to safeguard its status.

It won't be removed by the "comissions idiots" .... sheesh .... it will be exported from the EU by the UK leaving the EU on B-Day and then it will lose its EU VAT paid status after 3 years - this is due to the country it is berthed in leaving the EU and effectively exporting your boat for you. It will retain its VAT paid status in the UK. If your boat returns to the EU (goes through an EU port of entry) within 3 years and leaves again then the clock will be restarted. You will have to check in at a port of entry when you go to the EU and if you turn up with forged paperwork then good luck to you. Sailing into europe and avoiding customs at the ports of entry (where the passport checks are also done) will land you in hot water and if you get caught your asset (boat) will be siezed until they sort it out.

My boat went the other way and was imported into the EU without leaving its marina berth when Croatia joined the EU. I then had to go to a notar (solicitor) and complete the necessary paperwork to get VAT paid status. As the boat was more than 8 years old there was no VAT to pay but I needed the marina contract, the reciept to show I had the berth over the date of accession and the boats registration documents plus photographs of the boat if I recall correctly. There was a big tick-list of documents which I had to upload to an agents website and they then completed the customs declarations for me. While the boat was there the marina was responsible for keeping the boat under customs supervision.

... messing with customs isn't a joke in any country, not just the UK because they have the right to sieze your boat if they suspect a duty has been evaded.

Have a look here

https://www.sea-help.eu/en/croatian-customs-regulations-online/

If your cruising ground is the UK and you occasionally go to europe then a temporary import is the way to go, you get 18 months in the EU and if you need longer then leaving EU waters to reset the clock just involves checking-out at a port of entry, going for a daysail 12 miles out, turning round and checking back in again with your "Q" flag flying. I did it a few times in Croatia and it's the norm for US sailors cruising the med.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

This is what can happen at the moment in theory, if you take a boat from Alderney to Cherbourg.
In practice I expect there will be a simple online form to let UK customs know you're leaving the UK and when you expect to return. Loads of yachts cross borders around the world, life goes on.

That is what happens at the moment and will be no different for the UK as a third country. A border is a border - no customs union and no free movement means customs check-in and travel document checks (it only takes an hour at the most). You might well be able to do the UK exit online but at the EU arrival they will want to know who is on the boat and you will need to check in and collect the correct documentation to start your EU temporary import (18 months) and your 90 day tourist visa in the EU. This will will then be terminated, recorded and the clock will be reset when you check out. If you don't check out then next time your passport gets scanned in the EU you will be flagged as having overstayed and have some explaining to do.

At ports of entry you will find customs officers and police. The customs officers deal with the boat and duty, the police deal with the passports and passengers.

As skipper you are also responsible for ensuring that all your passengers have the correct travel documents, any mistakes and you'll have to repatriate them immediately. I've done it (checked in and out, not messed up travel documents) multiple times. To avoid the customs check-in at a port of entry is like driving your car through the field next to a border crossing - somewhat frowned upon. Good luck if you get caught.

PS Who knows what will happen with the channel islands ...

As Crown Dependencies the islands are not part of the United Kingdom or European Union, nor are they colonies or overseas territories of the United Kingdom like Gibraltar. They are possessions of the British Crown with independent administrations. Their assemblies pass their own legislation with the assent of the Crown granted in the Privy Council.

The Crown is responsible for defence, diplomatic representation and citizenship, although the islands maintain their own controls over housing and employment that apply to British as well as other citizens.

The islands have the right to establish direct relations with foreign governments. Although not parts of the European Union, they are in a customs union with it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18175986

 

[langstonelayabout]

Graham378
[QUOTE I would be thinking about photocopying someone's EU marina receipt and OCR it, changing the boat name. Whilst I would be very wary of cheating the UK Revenue, I have no such reluctance with the EU. In common with most UK boats, mine is EU VAT paid and I would be truly pissed off if that status were removed by the commission idiots. QUOTE]

As you are probably aware this would be a criminal offence (not the thinking but doing).

I'm sure there's something in English law about Actus Reus and Mens Rea...

 

[Bobc]

This is what can happen at the moment in theory, if you take a boat from Alderney to Cherbourg.
In practice I expect there will be a simple online form to let UK customs know you're leaving the UK and when you expect to return. Loads of yachts cross borders around the world, life goes on.

It is already there. You are supposed to call yachtline (or whatever it's called) and complete and post a customs form coming from CI to UK, but nobody does and nobody cares. I actually did it once, and the person at Yachtline was obviously not used to this, because they didn't really know what to do.

 

[Graham376]

I'm sure there's something in English law about Actus Reus and Mens Rea...

But as yet, there is no "act" and won't be by me anyway as boat is EU based.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Indeed, one turned up quite a few years ago in a well known former Welsh marina from the Carib allegedly! Sat there for a few years and was then sold. VAT? whats that?

Just about every boat in every marina in the UK could owe VAT, regardless of date of construction, details of last sale an so on. All it takes is an extended trip to Norway or the Channel Islands (or the Isle of Man?) sometime in the past. My boat was originally based in NE England - did she ever go to Oslo for two years? I have no idea.

I suspect that's why Trading Standards appear to be sublimely indifferent to any of this stuff.

 

[JumbleDuck]

In common with most UK boats, mine is EU VAT paid and I would be truly pissed off if that status were removed by the commission idiots.

The European Commission is not responsible for any of our current or approaching problems. If we want to retain the benefits of being in the EU, there is an absurdly simple way of doing so.

 

[Graham376]

The European Commission is not responsible for any of our current or approaching problems. If we want to retain the benefits of being in the EU, there is an absurdly simple way of doing so.

My understanding is that part of the VAT payments went to the EU and many boats now based in the UK were actually purchased in EU States other than the UK anyway. EU rules allow goods to be taken out of the territory and re-imported at a later date. I'm not a lawyer but can't help wondering how an item which is accepted as EU VAT paid, maybe paid in France, Spain etc. can suddenly lose its status under the same ownership within technically a minute. No doubt there will be legal challenge as presumably the decision effects all means of transport.

 

[lw395]

My understanding is that part of the VAT payments went to the EU and many boats now based in the UK were actually purchased in EU States other than the UK anyway. EU rules allow goods to be taken out of the territory BY EU CITIZENS and re-imported at a later date. I'm not a lawyer but can't help wondering how an item which is accepted as EU VAT paid, maybe paid in France, Spain etc. can suddenly lose its status under the same ownership within technically a minute. No doubt there will be legal challenge as presumably the decision effects all means of transport.

My bold added.
We need to wait for the small print, then read it.

 

[Irish Rover]

My bold added.
We need to wait for the small print, then read it.

I'm always amused about people getting uptight about boats losing their Union status but not a word about the millions of Brits born into the EU who are losing their citizenship status.

 

[eddystone]

Wasn't especially interested in this thread until I realised how it might catch out an acquaintance who bought a "project" Westerly Konsort a few years ago intending to keep it permanently in the south of Brittany where they have a second home. It's still being worked on in Devon so unlikely to be in Brittany before end of March therefore it will be exported from EU and re-imported when it enters France. I know leaving French waters and re-entering periodically is not going to work for them nor is wife's dual UK/Swiss citizenship going to help unless Switzerland is in customs union.

Would VAT likely be levied on original purchase price, same adjusted for inflation or current value at time of importation? Must admit find it hard to get my head round the idea of something losing it's VAT paid status if VAT was originally paid in the EU.

 

[GTom]

My bold added.
We need to wait for the small print, then read it.

What about a non-EU citizen (Norwegian, Swiss, American), cruising long term in EU waters? He/She also paid VAT and his/her boat can be away for 3 years, just like a boat of an EU tax resident. Non-EU Brit should receive no worse than the same treatment.
BTW, the text doesn't seem official to me, citizenship has little to do with taxes/customs, tax residency is the right term. Latter is also an interesting question for all UK residents, because they cannot be deemed non-EU tax residents before 29 September (B-day+183), when they definitely resided more than 183 days in the UK, making them UK tax residents.

 

[st599]

Wasn't especially interested in this thread until I realised how it might catch out an acquaintance who bought a "project" Westerly Konsort a few years ago intending to keep it permanently in the south of Brittany where they have a second home. It's still being worked on in Devon so unlikely to be in Brittany before end of March therefore it will be exported from EU and re-imported when it enters France. I know leaving French waters and re-entering periodically is not going to work for them nor is wife's dual UK/Swiss citizenship going to help unless Switzerland is in customs union.

Would VAT likely be levied on original purchase price, same adjusted for inflation or current value at time of importation? Must admit find it hard to get my head round the idea of something losing it's VAT paid status if VAT was originally paid in the EU.

Is there an import tariff on boats? Surely VAT would be payable on the value, cost of shipping and duty. What the boat is worth will be up for negotiation, but may be worth shipping prior to refurbishment and get that done in France so the calculation is lower.

As for the loss of VAT status. The boat will effectively be exported from the EU as the boats location will no longer be in the EU.

 

[sailorman]

My yacht is VAT Exempt

 

[Graham376]

My bold added.
We need to wait for the small print, then read it.

Obviously we're going to have to wait, possibly quite a long time but, don't think you are correct there. I met an American whose boat was likely to overstay its welcome as he through illness had been forced to stay away for a while. He had paid EU VAT/import duty (not sure of exact details) on it to avoid having to remove it and is free to take the boat in and out of the EU as often as he wants and he's never been a citizen or official resident. He is still of course personally time limited.

 

[lw395]

Wasn't especially interested in this thread until I realised how it might catch out an acquaintance who bought a "project" Westerly Konsort a few years ago intending to keep it permanently in the south of Brittany where they have a second home. It's still being worked on in Devon so unlikely to be in Brittany before end of March therefore it will be exported from EU and re-imported when it enters France. I know leaving French waters and re-entering periodically is not going to work for them nor is wife's dual UK/Swiss citizenship going to help unless Switzerland is in customs union.

Would VAT likely be levied on original purchase price, same adjusted for inflation or current value at time of importation? Must admit find it hard to get my head round the idea of something losing it's VAT paid status if VAT was originally paid in the EU.

This raises another issue.
The RCD.
If you're importing a pre '98 boat into the EU, you may have further costs.