Portrait of the ideal boat.

[Sybarite]

This is not my portrait; it is a free translation of a letter sent to a French mag. but I agree entirely with the sentiments, :

Although retired people are more and more numerous and financially solvent (n.b. written in 2008...), the large boat builders ignore them. They impose on us standard boats deemed to satisfy the average sailor – who doesn’t exist.

Standard range cruising boats are not adapted to those who sail far and for a long time mainly on a shorthanded basis.

Here therefore is my vision of a cruising boat (He then describes his 50 years experience and the many long cruises undertaken.)

Here is what I understand from Scandinavian sources:

• 95% of sailing is done as a couple.
• 95% use the engine in the absence of or in light wind or contrary winds.
• 99% leave the cockpit canopy in place all the time.
• 95% are between 55 and 65 years old and are retired.
• They anchor as often as they use marinas.

Therefore :

• Comfort and ease of use are more important than performance.
• A large engine and adequate diesel tanks are essential.
• A moderate sail area and a rolling foresail lead to efficiency, comfort and security.
• The canvas cockpit canopy is out.
• A hard dog-house is better : better visibility, better protection, total waterproofness and no wear and tear. It should cover the main hatch and the forward third of the cockpit.
• A short roof aids interior clarity and allows a panoramic vision as well as leaving a clear foredeck.

As far as the interior is concerned :

• It should be conceived with a smaller crew in mind.
• Rather than an over-sized saloon and 6 berths which are not required, we would prefer :
o A real fridge
o A real garbage bin
o A real bread bin
o A real oilskin locker
o A sufficient number of drawers
o A boot locker
o A large chart table with a lot of storage space
o Plenty of lockers with separations
o A separate shower in the heads.

 

[2nd_apprentice]

Would make poor charter boat 'tho!

 

[jac]

I'd buy that

Was looking at 2nd hand boats today. Was depressing the amount of usability that was lost just to cram in a 2nd after cabin. Who wants to sleep 8 on a 34 footer!!!!

 

[Sybarite]

Would make poor charter boat 'tho!

That's true because a lot of the boats cater for largish charter parties works committees, student groups etc.

However you would think that a large builder such as Bénéteau would have a more traditional cruising line to suit this market without going out on a limb as for say the "Sense" line.

The older Evasions did this but were really not nice looking boats. Surely somebody could produce a boat to these criteria without it costing an arm and a leg?

I quite like centre cockpit boats but I find the walk-through a waste of space. Better to use it for the heads.

 

[johnalison]

There's a lot of sense in that description.

By cockpit canopy I presume they mean sprayhood rather than cockpit tent. We oldies do tend to like our comforts but a good turn of speed is necessary for us too and more than that, "long legs".

They seem to have omitted another essential - a good drinks locker.

 

[Sybarite]

There's a lot of sense in that description.

By cockpit canopy I presume they mean sprayhood rather than cockpit tent. .

Yes. I've been away too long....

 

[Tranona]

History will show that many have tried it, but few have succeeded. Just a few examples, Konsort Duo, Vulcan, Moody Eclipse, Hunter 27 and 32 Pilot. They have modest success but once the small market has been mopped up, demand vanishes. The reality is that although many people say they would like boat like that (and other types not commonly available, see recent thread on Sadler 290), they are not the people in a position to buy a new boat.

 

[westernman]

This is not my portrait; it is a free translation of a letter sent to a French mag. but I agree entirely with the sentiments, :

Although retired people are more and more numerous and financially solvent (n.b. written in 2008...), the large boat builders ignore them. They impose on us standard boats deemed to satisfy the average sailor – who doesn’t exist.

Standard range cruising boats are not adapted to those who sail far and for a long time mainly on a shorthanded basis.

Here therefore is my vision of a cruising boat (He then describes his 50 years experience and the many long cruises undertaken.)

Here is what I understand from Scandinavian sources:

• 95% of sailing is done as a couple.
• 95% use the engine in the absence of or in light wind or contrary winds.
• 99% leave the cockpit canopy in place all the time.
• 95% are between 55 and 65 years old and are retired.
• They anchor as often as they use marinas.

Therefore :

• Comfort and ease of use are more important than performance.
• A large engine and adequate diesel tanks are essential.
• A moderate sail area and a rolling foresail lead to efficiency, comfort and security.
• The canvas cockpit canopy is out.
• A hard dog-house is better : better visibility, better protection, total waterproofness and no wear and tear. It should cover the main hatch and the forward third of the cockpit.
• A short roof aids interior clarity and allows a panoramic vision as well as leaving a clear foredeck.

As far as the interior is concerned :

• It should be conceived with a smaller crew in mind.
• Rather than an over-sized saloon and 6 berths which are not required, we would prefer :
o A real fridge
o A real garbage bin
o A real bread bin
o A real oilskin locker
o A sufficient number of drawers
o A boot locker
o A large chart table with a lot of storage space
o Plenty of lockers with separations
o A separate shower in the heads.

Seems like a pretty accurate description of an Amel.

 

[Babylon]

...
Therefore :

• Comfort and ease of use are more important than performance. TICK
• A large engine and adequate diesel tanks are essential. TICK
• A moderate sail area and a rolling foresail lead to efficiency, comfort and security. TICK
• The canvas cockpit canopy is out.
• A hard dog-house is better : better visibility, better protection, total waterproofness and no wear and tear. It should cover the main hatch and the forward third of the cockpit. TICK
• A short roof aids interior clarity and allows a panoramic vision as well as leaving a clear foredeck. TICK

As far as the interior is concerned :

• It should be conceived with a smaller crew in mind. TICK
• Rather than an over-sized saloon and 6 berths which are not required, we would prefer :
o A real fridge TICK
o A real garbage bin TICK
o A real bread bin TICK
o A real oilskin locker TICK
o A sufficient number of drawers TICK
o A boot locker TICK
o A large chart table with a lot of storage space TICK
o Plenty of lockers with separations TICK
o A separate shower in the heads. TICK

We already make what he's after: http://www.northshore.co.uk/yachts/vancouver/34-pilot/ TICK

And here's one for sale: http://www.northshore.co.uk/brokerage/vancouver-34-pilot-3272530.html

 

[Searush]

That's interesting, all boat owners are the same are they then? No need for any small boats, trailer sailors, motorboats, long distance cruisers, racing boats, cats or tris then?

Is this the same concept as the "only the Frogs can efficiently rescue boaters in trouble" thread?

Have you thought of going into consutlancy seeing as you claim to have the answer to everyones' problems.

 

[Greenheart]

Would make poor charter boat 'tho!

A curse on yacht-charter and its cram-'em-in economics! Chartering a yacht sounds elegant and prestigious, just as if one was hiring a posh car. But in fact, the reality of six or seven or more bodies aboard an 11-metre boat is akin to hiring a minibus. Glamorous, NOT.

What a pity, that most yacht-charter companies rely upon space-efficient layouts which allow many guests minimal room.

I daresay Tranona is correct in stating that those sections of the market which might wish for a layout that supports comfortable living for a couple, are unable to influence manufacturers with their wallets. Very unfortunate...

...although perhaps the BenJenBav brigade might evolve to arrange mix-&-match after-market accommodation pods, so a 9-berther with one overused head compartment could be returned to the factory, and the internals switched for two en-suite staterooms?

Despite my ineradicable interest in sailing at all levels, and despite my enjoying the poor man's freedom to dream, I can be completely certain that nothing would ever induce me to spend my own money on a 34-footer with more than four berths. Or a minibus!

If the market won't design a layout for my tastes, I'll readily take up the opportunity to plan a wholesale re-build.

Glad to hear that others are likewise not content. I'd have thought a canny builder would at least offer a luxury alternative.

 

[Grumpybear]

Wozzall the fuss about?

Our 1999 SO36.2 has four berths: a double in the forehead and another aft on the starboard side. The saloon table and seats could convert into a third double, but the infill cushion takes up a lot of space so we leave it at home. The standard version also had a single berth on the port side of the saloon, but ours has two nice armchairs flanking a drinks locker instead. The brochure calls this the "owner's version"; don't they make them like this anymore?

In passing, I think it was Andrew Simpson who said that he couldn't think of six people he and his wife would want to be cooped up in a boat with!

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Apart from the solid roof I think I have that boat.

Rustler 44.

 

[[70521]]

We already make what he's after: http://www.northshore.co.uk/yachts/vancouver/34-pilot/ TICK

And here's one for sale: http://www.northshore.co.uk/brokerage/vancouver-34-pilot-3272530.html

And it's not pretty, the one for sale even has a tent; I can feel a Victor Meldrew moment coming one!

 

[Sybarite]

Apart from the solid roof I think I have that boat.

Rustler 44.

That was last week's discussion when I said you could buy a Feeling 44 for less than the depreciation of the Rustler over 4 years.

 

[Sybarite]

That's interesting, all boat owners are the same are they then? No need for any small boats, trailer sailors, motorboats, long distance cruisers, racing boats, cats or tris then?

Is this the same concept as the "only the Frogs can efficiently rescue boaters in trouble" thread?

Have you thought of going into consutlancy seeing as you claim to have the answer to everyones' problems.

Look for the clue words : "Ideal" "long distance cruising"

Is this the same concept as "I'm going to criticize everything on principle and then reflect at leisure?"

You will have read of course that this was a translation of somebody else's letter? Did that sink in?

 

[Sybarite]

History will show that many have tried it, but few have succeeded. Just a few examples, Konsort Duo, Vulcan, Moody Eclipse, Hunter 27 and 32 Pilot. They have modest success but once the small market has been mopped up, demand vanishes. The reality is that although many people say they would like boat like that (and other types not commonly available, see recent thread on Sadler 290), they are not the people in a position to buy a new boat.

I had more in mind a Rasmus 35, Moody Halberdier, Amel Sharki, Salar 40. etc

Open but protected centre cockpits which are, I believe, less conducive to sea-sickness.

 

[onesea]

I had more in mind a Rasmus 35, Moody Halberdier, Amel Sharki, Salar 40. etc

Open but protected centre cockpits which are, I believe, less conducive to sea-sickness.

Very few people do not get over sea sickness if they are spending that much time afloat. I read that and thought Nauticat or Fisher surprised no one has mentioned...

 

[Greenheart]

Motor-sailer owners are conspicuously not stupid.

The sheltered steering-position question is surely another preposterous consequence of the juncture between the popular sunny image of sailing, and the more usual, miserably comfortless reality of usage, fifty degrees north...

...I've encountered blissful summer days aboard commonplace flush-decked sloops whose Solent owner-users simply accepted that nobody (including themselves) wished ever to be aboard between October and March.

Their purchase/ownership completely mitigates the reliance by builders on the enduring, unprotected style of cockpit which, let's face it, most sailing yacht designers revert to rather than compromise performance and appearance...

...and perhaps the widespread acceptance of these boats' infrequent usefulness (other than by masochists), distills their chic popular image - sun-drenched, not sodden and dismally chilly; because when the weather doesn't suit, their owners won't go out to play.

I always think the motorsailer/open-cockpit yacht choice is one that says plenty about the owner. To me, a yacht with no indoor helm is like a car with no roof - not a convertible, but one with NO roof at all...such vehicles do exist, for track-days and speed-freaks...

...the point being, if you have a 5-car garage, it may make sense for ONE of them to be so rarely enjoyable to drive...

...but if you can only have one vehicle, who'd pick a design that's really unpleasant in most UK weather? Apparently, when we arrive at the happy state of wealth that permits acquisition of a sailing yacht, we're all in the same state of mind as when buying our fifth car...

...it's not even a momentary attempt at practicality - it's only for occasional fun, determined by met office forecasts.

Tragically then, the market doesn't support production of designs which offer a warm dry ride, the other 300 days per annum.

I genuinely hope you'll all enjoy the next five months on board, be it at sea or on hard-standing.

 

[Sybarite]

The sheltered steering-position question is surely another preposterous consequence of the juncture between the popular sunny image of sailing, and the more usual, miserably comfortless reality of usage, fifty degrees north...

...I've encountered blissful summer days aboard commonplace flush-decked sloops whose Solent owner-users simply accepted that nobody (including themselves) wished ever to be aboard between October and March.

Their purchase/ownership completely mitigates the reliance by builders on the enduring, unprotected style of cockpit which, let's face it, most sailing yacht designers revert to rather than compromise performance and appearance...

...and perhaps the widespread acceptance of these boats' infrequent usefulness (other than by masochists), distills their chic popular image - sun-drenched, not sodden and dismally chilly; because when the weather doesn't suit, their owners won't go out to play.

I always think the motorsailer/open-cockpit yacht choice is one that says plenty about the owner. To me, a yacht with no indoor helm is like a car with no roof - not a convertible, but one with NO roof at all...such vehicles do exist, for track-days and speed-freaks...

...the point being, if you have a 5-car garage, it may make sense for ONE of them to be so rarely enjoyable to drive...

...but if you can only have one vehicle, who'd pick a design that's really unpleasant in most UK weather? Apparently, when we arrive at the happy state of wealth that permits acquisition of a sailing yacht, we're all in the same state of mind as when buying our fifth car...

...it's not even a momentary attempt at practicality - it's only for occasional fun, determined by met office forecasts.

Tragically then, the market doesn't support production of designs which offer a warm dry ride, the other 300 days per annum.

I genuinely hope you'll all enjoy the next five months on board, be it at sea or on hard-standing.

I do not like to have cold and wet night watches.

I love the sun but it does not love me, meaning I have to have bits chopped off every now and again.

Which means I like protection both from the cold AND the sun.

I think this guy describes it very well:

http://www.condesa.org/about-my-boat/