"Port of entry" if brexit ever happens

[Lucky Duck]

The information distributed by Cherbourg marina suggested non-EU nationals were required to record their presence at some office (I can't remember which one) in town - I assumed in the absence of any 'deal' all UK yachts owners and crew would be faced with this inconvenience...

 

[Blue_mischief]

As a WCoS sailor I'm more interested in the impact of North Channel/Irish Sea crossings than Channel crossings. Presumably all the mist and confusion regarding what will happen down south applies to entry into the Republic of Ireland? (And who knows, maybe even Northern Ireland? :ambivalence
It's all beyond me, which gives me the talent and knowledge to be an MP. :nonchalance:

 

[dom]

... there will be plenty of opportunity for French, Belgian, Dutch customs/immigration to make life a living hell for UK yachtsmen.

...which would in turn damage the many French businesses' who rely on UK boaters to make their living !

 

[Baggywrinkle]

...which would in turn damage the many French businesses' who rely on UK boaters to make their living !

The customs and immigration people don't give a fig about cafes and restaurants or businesses that rely on tourism - if they did then we wouldn't have had the Red Diesel problem up until 2017. They have a job to do and that is to enforce and police whatever customs and immigration laws are in force.

If the UK becomes a non-EU 3rd country (revokes FoM and CU) then its citizens will be treated like any other non-EU country until something more sensible is negotiated. That means customs declarations and immigration checks however the French, Belgians and Dutch decide they need to do it. Border Force in the UK will reciprocate in the other direction.

Rules currently are that you can't stay more than 90 days in any 180 - which means your date of entry and departure needs to be recorded, and your boat may not stay more than 18 months in EU waters otherwise customs duties for an import will become due - so they need to record date of entry and exit for the boat too. Then there are all the EU rules about quantities of alcohol, cigarettes, transport of controlled goods from non-EU countries - none of those apply to UK citizens at the moment.

VAT and excise duties when entering the EU
If you enter the EU from a non-EU country, you can bring goods free of VAT and excise duties with you within the limits set out below and if they are not for resale. The same rules apply if you come from the Canary Islands, the Channel Islands, Gibraltar or other territories where EU rules on VAT and excise do not apply.

Alcoholic drinks
You can bring in:

4 litres of still wine and
16 litres of beer
You can also bring:

a total of 1 litre of spirits over 22 % vol. or 1 litre of undenatured alcohol (ethyl alcohol) of 80% vol. (or over) or 2 litres of fortified or sparkling wine
Each of these amounts represents 100% of the total of this last allowance which you can split. For example, you can bring a half a litre of spirits and 1 litre of fortified wine - both represent half of this allowance.

Tobacco products
There is a higher or lower limit depending on the EU country you are visiting. If an EU country applies the lower limits, it can either apply them only to land and sea travellers (Bulgaria, Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Slovakia) or to all travellers (Estonia and Romania).

Higher limit

200 cigarettes or
100 cigarillos or
50 cigars or
250 g tobacco

Lower limit

40 cigarettes or
20 cigarillos or
10 cigars or
50 g tobacco

You may combine any of these tobacco products but you must not exceed the total limit. For example, 50 cigarillos + 25 cigars = total allowance.

If you are under 17 years old you are not entitled to a duty free allowance for tobacco or alcohol.

Other goods including perfume
You may carry other goods up to a value of EUR 300 per traveller or EUR 430 for travellers by air and sea. Some EU countries apply a lower limit of EUR 150 for travellers under 15.

Fuel
You can carry 10 litres (maximum) in a portable container, in addition to the fuel contained in your fuel tank. This rule applies to any type of motorised vehicle.

Excise duties when leaving the EU
If you are travelling to a destination outside the EU (and certain areas within the EU such as the Canary Islands) you can buy goods free of duty and tax in so-called "tax-free shops" in airports and ports. You should however bear in mind that these goods may be subject to duty free and tax free allowances in your non-EU country of destination.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/carry/alcohol-tobacco-cash/index_en.htm

If you are within these limits then you have nothing to declare - which is in itself a customs declaration - and if you're over the limits then duty should be paid.

I can't understand why it's so difficult to grasp .... what alternative is there if we are leaving the customs union and stopping freedom of movement? The rules already exist - we'd simply be treated like canadians or americans within the EU. I've travelled with americans round europe and they are scrutinized far more closely than UK citizens, and an australian boat was opposite my marina berth in Croatia counting down the remaining days before he ran out of time and had to leave the EU.

If anyone chooses to ignore the rules then maybe it will be OK, maybe nothing will happen, I just think Brexit will exacerbate problems like this ....

It is unlawful in Belgium to use red diesel for propelling a private pleasure craft. Boating in Belgian waters with marked 'red' diesel in your fuel tanks put you at risk of receiving a fine (of €500 - €5000). This has been the case since the beginning of this decade.

However the Belgian Government has now acknowledged that its approach is different to that of its near neighbours (France and the Netherlands). Belgian customs has therefore suspended all controls [for marked 'red' diesel in pleasure craft] until further notice.

... until further notice? ... do they mean Brexit? They can do what they want once we've left the EU.

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/boating-abroad/Pages/red-diesel-abroad.aspx

https://www.theca.org.uk/rats/red_diesel_use_in_EU
https://www.theca.org.uk/system/fil...sure Craft When In EU Waters January 2018.pdf

 

[Angele]

The customs and immigration people don't give a fig about cafes and restaurants or businesses that rely on tourism - if they did then we wouldn't have had the Red Diesel problem up until 2017. They have a job to do and that is to enforce and police whatever customs and immigration laws are in force.

Don't tar the French with the same brush as the Belgians. Dom's comment was solely about the French. I'm not aware that the French customs have ever fined a British boat for having red diesel, unlike the Belgians. In my opinion the French are more pragmatic than some of their other "rules based" neighbours. Look back at what I said in post 11 about boats going to France from the CI. The French customs should be keeping a close eye on them and insisting that the check in and out properly. The fact that they do not shows that they are willing to turn a blind eye when it suits them.

 

[capnsensible]

Does anyone else remember coming back across the Channel and going to see the customs bloke in his dory off Lymington? Or trying to find enough change for the phone box to ring the customs in Sothampton then wait for an hour before going home if no one showed up? Or the honesty boxes for customs declaration forms?

Eee, kids today, dont even know theres born.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Does anyone else remember coming back across the Channel and going to see the customs bloke in his dory off Lymington? Or trying to find enough change for the phone box to ring the customs in Sothampton then wait for an hour before going home if no one showed up? Or the honesty boxes for customs declaration forms?

Eee, kids today, dont even know theres born.

To right they don't ... leaving the customs union and stopping freedom of movement seperates the EU and UK - they become different jurisdictions with their own rules. Ours are here ... read through them an delete all the references to EU exceptions and what's left is where we land.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk

3. Arriving in the United Kingdom
3.1 Do I need to fly the yellow ‘Q’ flag?
If you are arriving directly from another EU Member State there is no need to fly the ‘Q’ flag.

If you are arriving from outside the EU (and this includes the Channel Islands) you must fly the ‘Q’ flag, where it can readily be seen, as soon as you enter UK waters (the 12 mile limit). Do not take down the flag until you have finished reporting to the customs authorities, as described in paragraph 3.2. Failure to comply will make you liable to a penalty.

3.2 Do I need to notify the customs authorities on arrival?
Whether you need to notify your arrival to the customs authorities depends upon where your last port of call was. If you are arriving directly from an EU Member State, you only need to contact the customs authorities if you have goods to declare. However, there may still be immigration requirements that need to be met and you should refer to paragraph 3.14 for details.

When arriving direct from a country outside the EU (the Channel Islands are regarded as outside the EU for this purpose), you must phone the National Yachtline. You will need to inform the Yachtline if any of the following apply:

• VAT has not been paid on the vessel
• you have any goods in excess of the travellers’ allowance detailed in Notice 1: Travelling to the UK
• you have on board goods which are to be treated as duty free stores
• you have any prohibited or restricted goods
• there is any notifiable illness on board
• there are any people on board who need immigration clearance
• any repairs or modifications, other than running repairs, have been carried out since the vessel last left the EU

You will need to comply with any further instructions that you are given.

If arriving from outside the EU the National Yachtline will ask you to complete form C1331. If you already have a form C1331 part 2 on board, from when the vessel left the UK, you should complete section (iii) amending details of persons on board, if necessary, then sign and date the form again. You can obtain form C1331 or by phoning the Imports and exports: general enquiries helpline. The form may also be available from some local yacht clubs and marinas.

You should send the completed C1331 forms to the UKBA address shown in paragraph 7.2 which is also given on the C1331 form.

Except for contacting the customs authorities as above, you must not land goods or persons or transfer them to another vessel until a customs official says you may do so.

Or here ...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sailing-a-leisure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk

Commitment to the boating community
Anyone who owns, or is responsible for, a leisure craft (such as a yacht) that sails to or from locations outside the UK is required to provide vessel and goods documentation. For VAT purposes, the Channel Islands are treated as being outside the UK and the European Community.

Border Force is working with the maritime community (both owners and operators) to find a solution to collecting vessel and goods information in advance of travel and ensuring the community is represented in the process.

All boaters prior to arrival must consider:

whether you tell us of your arrival depends on the location of your last port of call

if you are arriving from another EU country, you only need to contact us if you have goods to declare and if anyone onboard requires immigration clearance

if you are travelling by leisure craft from a non-EU country, you must phone the National Yachtline on 0845 723 1110.

The National Yachtline will ask you a number of questions about your journey and who is on board your boat. You should have the documents for the vessel and crew ready. These include:

vessel registration papers
passports
clearance document from your last port of call
VAT status or receipt
customs declaration (C1331) if you’re returning back to the UK.

Border Force electronically collects and analyses information from carriers (including airlines, ferries and rail companies) about everyone who intends to travel to or from the UK. It allows them to identify passengers who are a potential risk and to alert the relevant authorities.

 

[dom]

To right they don't ... leaving the customs union and stopping freedom of movement seperates the EU and UK - they become different jurisdictions with their own rules. Ours are here ... read through them an delete all the references to EU exceptions and what's left is where we land..................

Bureaucracy aside, the French Government will ultimately care very much care about the economic welfare of its citizens. The people of Normandy after all have a history of defiance dating back over 1,000 years, not to mention the Gilets Jaunes today.

And speaking of bureaucracy, there are currently 'strict' customs requirements for vessels returning-to/entering-the-UK from the Channel Islands, in addition to - as Angele pointed out - from/to the Channel Islands and France. I've never heard of anyone filling in such a form and doubt most Border Force or Douanes staff know what it looks like, let alone where to get one!

 

[LadyInBed]

As a WCoS sailor

What is a WCoS sailor?
Wells Cathedral Oratorio Society?
Windows OneCore operating System?

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Bureaucracy aside, the French Government will ultimately care very much care about the economic welfare of its citizens. The people of Normandy after all have a history of defiance dating back over 1,000 years, not to mention the Gilets Jaunes today.

And speaking of bureaucracy, there are currently 'strict' customs requirements for vessels returning-to/entering-the-UK from the Channel Islands, in addition to - as Angele pointed out - from/to the Channel Islands and France. I've never heard of anyone filling in such a form and doubt most Border Force or Douanes staff know what it looks like, let alone where to get one!

OK .. I bow to your superior knowledge. IMHO you are very trusting of the French customs and immigration officers if post-Brexit you believe they will just turn a blind eye to customs and immigration violations, maybe they will, maybe they won't. At the end of the day it's not my problem as I sail in the Med ... I do know that the unfortunates here who end up snarled up in customs misunderstandings can and do have their boats siezed and plonked on the hard until the whole mess is sorted out in the courts. I wish you nothing but good luck. :encouragement:

Shit does happen, Brexit will only make it worse for cruising in the EU .... some examples from all over ...

Croatian captain who fell foul of visa laws has racing yacht seized on Gold Coast

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/na...cht-seized-on-gold-coast-20181029-p50cq0.html

Or this lot closer to home ...

We had heard horror stories about the French customs from at least half a dozen people: they warned us to have ALL your paperwork exactly in order and perfect documentation or risk having your boat seized or impounded.

https://www.noonsite.com/Countries/...e-atlantic-coast-of-france-spain-and-portugal

Remember that the time to remain in Greece given to your boat by Customs is totally different to the time Immigration will give you and your crew in the country. Customs often permit a boat stay of longer than your visa permits you to stay. This US cruising couple got it wrong and had to pay a large fine for overstaying their Schengen visas.

https://www.noonsite.com/Countries/...ow-the-difference-between-customs-immigration

I was under the impression that as Gibraltar is part of the EU (though outside the VAT area) any time spent there would be considered by French/Spanish Customs to be included in the 18 months TI period.

These VAT issues are always a little cloudier than we all wish them to be.

There should be no problems with the French accepting a Gib visit as a step outside the EU because they are willing to accept a visit to the Channel Is. (as reported to us in the last year by multiple American boats) and, after all, the Channel Is. are in France's backyard.

The issue as it relates to Spain is of course due to Spain's contention with the UK re: independence for Gib, even though they operate the same VAT-free zone across the Straits in Ceuta. It's also relevant to note that the Spanish only rarely board boats (unlike the French) and we almost never hear of any non-EU boat having to prove they are inside their 18-month VAT-exemption window to the Spanish, simply because the Spanish authorities don't concern themselves with boarding & VAT enforcement terribly often. We also know multiple non-EU crew who have wintered continuously in Spain for 2+ years (Barcelona is the most common example) without VAT ever becoming an issue.

However, it's probably prudent to say that - IF a non-EU boat is depending on a Gib-based visit to restart their VAT clock, and IF they happen to be inspected by Spanish authorities, and IF they happen to be sensitive to the Gib issue, then the boat's Gib visit may be disallowed.

https://www.noonsite.com/Members/doina/R2007-03-27-2

In Samos they picked up on the Port of Registry. We were told that our paper work was wrong and we needed a Transit Log. Although we said we were British Registered they insisted that because it was registered in Guernsey and therefore not EU, we had to have a Transit Log. The next problem was our home address, as this is in the UK (part of the EU)this meant we could only stay for 1 month if we had not been out of the EU for 183 days in the last 360 days.

We then went to Mitilini, Lesvos, where they were surprised to see we had a Transit Log. We explained everything to them and the Customs Officer said he would investigate the problem. On returning to see him the next day, we were told it was correct but he was surprised.

We changed our plans and cleared out at Mitilini and went to Ayvalik, Turkey, to organise a marine berth for when we fly back to the UK in July and August.

https://www.noonsite.com/Members/sue/R2011-06-04-2

Some Customs officials (in particular, those in Greece) do not understand the difference between a yacht’s Port of Registry and a yacht’s Flag State. In many cases this is the same country and, therefore, causes no confusion. However, difficulties can arise when the Port of Registry is outside the EU, but the yacht’s flag State IS a member state. This is the situation with many yachts based in the Channel Islands: Jersey, Guernsey and Alderney (see feedback from cruisers who have experienced problems of this nature here).

https://www.noonsite.com/Countries/...ered-by-yachts-with-a-non-eu-port-of-registry

The channel islands info here says otherwise too, currently it is informal, at least for Jersey, (because of the EU agreements and the CTA) ... no-one knows what the status will be post Brexit though ... again, likely to be the non-EU rules if we leave the CU, EEA and stop FoM.

Jersey
Simplified clearance procedures for visiting yachtsmen means that most are not obliged to carry out Customs and Immigration formalities. They remain liable to inspection at any time but not required to fill in forms or make declarations. Those arriving from outside the European Economic area, have non European Economic Area nationals on board or have any goods to declare (including prohibited or restricted items) will still have to fly the yellow "Q" flag and fill out the JCE 112. No one except the captain may go ashore until formalities are completed.

Jersey Customs and Immigration can be reached at +44 (0)1534 448000.

https://www.noonsite.com/Countries/ChannelIslands?rc=Formalities

Have a nice evening ... I tend to stick to the rules as published because fighting in a foreign court to get my boat back afterwards or to try and avoid a hefty fine is far more difficult than complying with the customs and immigration rules in the first place.

 

[dom]

I do know that the unfortunates here who end up snarled up in customs misunderstandings can and do have their boats siezed and plonked on the hard until the whole mess is sorted out in the courts. I wish you nothing but good luck. :encouragement:

Shit does happen, Brexit will only make it worse for cruising in the EU ....


Have a nice evening ... I tend to stick to the rules as published because fighting in a foreign court to get my boat back afterwards or to try and avoid a hefty fine is far more difficult than complying with the customs and immigration rules in the first place.

How pathetic.

Ever noticed the way this forum spontaneously rallies around sailors the world over when they face a problem?

Ever seen childish sneering upon finding out someone is from France, Germany, or Timbuktu?

 

[capnsensible]

Its been a lot of hassle free travel and sailing for such a lot of years in the UK. Sadly that looks likely to end and you guys are gonna have to get used to the joys of entering and clearing out by the looks of it...

Oh, if you do ever have to use a phone box to call in your arrival, it will be raining.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

How pathetic.

Ever noticed the way this forum spontaneously rallies around sailors the world over when they face a problem?

Ever seen childish sneering upon finding out someone is from France, Germany, or Timbuktu?

I'm not sneering at anyone and I'm as willing as the next one to help other yachtsmen with problems. ... the arrangement between EU countries makes sailing in the english channel a piece of cake with very few regulations or formalities at the moment.

Leave the EU club (taxation and customs union, european economic area, and revoke free movement) and the game changes considerably - it will look very different to the way it does today. In my cruising area I meet boats and crews from all over the world and non EU countries are easily accessible. It's a different world, you get to know where all the ports of entry are, which ones are most friendly, least busy and you work to the regulations in place - at least you do if you want peace of mind. That's the only point I was making - Brexit is going to change things considerably, at least it is if the current vision for Brexit comes to pass.

As capnsensible says,

Sadly that looks likely to end and you guys are gonna have to get used to the joys of entering and clearing out by the looks of it...

I really don't have much more to say on the matter, sorry if I have offended anyone.

 

[Minchsailor]

As a WCoS sailor I'm more interested in the impact of North Channel/Irish Sea crossings than Channel crossings. Presumably all the mist and confusion regarding what will happen down south applies to entry into the Republic of Ireland? (And who knows, maybe even Northern Ireland? :ambivalence
It's all beyond me, which gives me the talent and knowledge to be an MP. :nonchalance:

Since decades before I was born there has been 'special' arrangements between the Republic and the UK for free travel for citizens between the two nations. This is why there is so much kerfuful about the 'Irish Backstop' - to retain this freedom and not have a closed border whatever the outcome of this current shambles. Theoretically (and this is a huge assumption) there should be no change.

 

[Blue_mischief]

WCoS = West Coast of Scotland

Minchsailor - its the huge assumption about which I am worried.

 

[doug748]

I have not followed the proposed new arrangements with mainland Europe very closely. In fact I have not followed it at all.

However. The Channel Islands negotiated a relaxed regime with France on the grounds that they were close neighbours and chummy with the UK.

I think similar will prevail in the end, no doubt after the usual puffing and blowing during the interregnum. The end of the world is not nigh.

 

[johnalison]

Does anyone else remember coming back across the Channel and going to see the customs bloke in his dory off Lymington? Or trying to find enough change for the phone box to ring the customs in Sothampton then wait for an hour before going home if no one showed up? Or the honesty boxes for customs declaration forms?

Eee, kids today, dont even know theres born.

Not Lymington wherever that is, but in Essex they made us wait two hours, but we are a bit slow over here. What on earth is a phone box? I can't remember.

 

[capnsensible]

What on earth is a phone box? I can't remember.

Its a cold place to shelter in when its raining.

 

[Tradewinds]

Usually the local urinal

Its a cold place to shelter in when its raining.

 

[Tomahawk]

I will expect the Belgium jobsworths to make a meal of everything...

The French may be different