snowleopard
Well-Known Member
For the benefit of those who thought the Somali pirates were poor families trying to stave off starvation, have a look at this.
Poor Somalis
- Thread starter snowleopard
- Start date
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
A speaker on Jeremy Vine's show this afternoon said that peripheral businesses are growing around the pirates. Apparently there are so many western hostages there, who prefer not to eat Somali food, that entrepreneurs are setting up canteens serving western food.
terrywilson1234
Well-Known Member
From the article: "but piracy has been a problem in Somali waters for at least 10 years - when Somali fishermen began losing their livelihoods.", "Illegal fishing is the root cause of the piracy problem,"
More importantly, the article in no way provides evidence to support flattening Eyl. Indeed the article highlights how ineffective and inhuman such an act would be.
It demonstrates there are innocent people in the town and anyway the town described isn't Eyl and the latest big tanker wasn't even taken to Eyl. Hardly a compelling case for destruction of Eyl.
This is a more complex problem than the gung-ho posters here understand, and no doubt the solution will be more complex than such people understand as well.
Nobody has said that pirates should go unmolested - indeed there was excellent news today that the RN handed 8 of them over to Kenya (Why Kenya? Has the UK govt made any kind of payment to Kenya?).
More importantly, the article in no way provides evidence to support flattening Eyl. Indeed the article highlights how ineffective and inhuman such an act would be.
It demonstrates there are innocent people in the town and anyway the town described isn't Eyl and the latest big tanker wasn't even taken to Eyl. Hardly a compelling case for destruction of Eyl.
This is a more complex problem than the gung-ho posters here understand, and no doubt the solution will be more complex than such people understand as well.
Nobody has said that pirates should go unmolested - indeed there was excellent news today that the RN handed 8 of them over to Kenya (Why Kenya? Has the UK govt made any kind of payment to Kenya?).
charliespan
Well-Known Member
Bring back the Q-ships.
Anyone attacking such a decoy deserves all they get.
Avoids the "collateral damage" of an airstrike on a town
full of non-pirates.
Anyone attacking such a decoy deserves all they get.
Avoids the "collateral damage" of an airstrike on a town
full of non-pirates.
boatbuilder
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately the words Oil and American ,have recently been added to the equation, Bush is not known for thoughtfull action.
terrywilson1234
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Bring back the Q-ships.
Anyone attacking such a decoy deserves all they get.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep. Convoys too.
There still needs to be a long term solution as well, though.
Bring back the Q-ships.
Anyone attacking such a decoy deserves all they get.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep. Convoys too.
There still needs to be a long term solution as well, though.
jhr
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Bring back the Q-ships.
[/ QUOTE ] This was my thought too, but all the indications are that these guys are pretty sophisticated operators, often acting on inside information (how else would they have picked up a ship - even a VLCC - well out to sea and hundreds of miles from their home port?). If that's the case, they're likely to know which are the imposters, maybe?
It will be interesting to see if anything happens as a result of the current situation. It's got to the point where the pirates are effectively sticking two fingers up to the international community. I wouldn't be entirely suprised if someone, somewhere, is putting together plans to mount an assault, even if they're just theoretical at the moment........
Bring back the Q-ships.
[/ QUOTE ] This was my thought too, but all the indications are that these guys are pretty sophisticated operators, often acting on inside information (how else would they have picked up a ship - even a VLCC - well out to sea and hundreds of miles from their home port?). If that's the case, they're likely to know which are the imposters, maybe?
It will be interesting to see if anything happens as a result of the current situation. It's got to the point where the pirates are effectively sticking two fingers up to the international community. I wouldn't be entirely suprised if someone, somewhere, is putting together plans to mount an assault, even if they're just theoretical at the moment........
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
I would be very surprised if they aren't!
As per usual, it will be the innocent starving masses who will pay the price....
As per usual, it will be the innocent starving masses who will pay the price....
whipper_snapper
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't be entirely suprised if someone, somewhere, is putting together plans to mount an assault, even if they're just theoretical at the moment........
[/ QUOTE ]
the Americans have made 2 attempts to sort-out Somalia. Both have been catastrophic and left Somalians and the rest of the world worse off than before.
The 2nd is ongoing now - poor old Ethiopia was suckered into acting for the Americans because they were afraid of the Islamic councils which came close to being an effective government - and largely stopped piracy.
Result ? More piracy, more lawlessness, more Islamic extremism, Ethiopia in pooh.
I wouldn't be entirely suprised if someone, somewhere, is putting together plans to mount an assault, even if they're just theoretical at the moment........
[/ QUOTE ]
the Americans have made 2 attempts to sort-out Somalia. Both have been catastrophic and left Somalians and the rest of the world worse off than before.
The 2nd is ongoing now - poor old Ethiopia was suckered into acting for the Americans because they were afraid of the Islamic councils which came close to being an effective government - and largely stopped piracy.
Result ? More piracy, more lawlessness, more Islamic extremism, Ethiopia in pooh.
jb2008
Well-Known Member
Indeed, they act from information, these are big operations backed with millions of dollars.
It's not some fishermen who can't find any fish any more, so their only option is to hijack a supertanker and demand tens of millions for it (and the crews) release. I don't doubt that some of them used to be fishermen, but they're hardly bound to one profession.
The fact is that there is huge gain and very few consequences for this kind of "work", it might even be safer than fishing which is pretty dangerous in its own right.
In the pirates favour, is that they generally treat the crews well. Since the shipping companies also seem to view it as more of a commercial transaction - a toll almost - then it's probably best just to leave them to continue.
If you wanted to stop it, then the response has to be real and has to outweigh the gains, which are after all, enormous even in British terms, let alone from a Somali's viewpoint.
Currently Somalia is doing well out of a lucrative trade at the expense of wealthy nations with little harm done, perhaps just leaving them to it is an option. Until the violence escalates.
It's not some fishermen who can't find any fish any more, so their only option is to hijack a supertanker and demand tens of millions for it (and the crews) release. I don't doubt that some of them used to be fishermen, but they're hardly bound to one profession.
The fact is that there is huge gain and very few consequences for this kind of "work", it might even be safer than fishing which is pretty dangerous in its own right.
In the pirates favour, is that they generally treat the crews well. Since the shipping companies also seem to view it as more of a commercial transaction - a toll almost - then it's probably best just to leave them to continue.
If you wanted to stop it, then the response has to be real and has to outweigh the gains, which are after all, enormous even in British terms, let alone from a Somali's viewpoint.
Currently Somalia is doing well out of a lucrative trade at the expense of wealthy nations with little harm done, perhaps just leaving them to it is an option. Until the violence escalates.
jhr
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I should have been more specific: I meant an assault on the tanker. I agree that any kind of assault on so-called Pirate Strongholds will result in the death of lots of innocent people and - quite likely - abject failure on the part of the assaulter(s).
matelot
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
In the pirates favour, is that they generally treat the crews well. Since the shipping companies also seem to view it as more of a commercial transaction - a toll almost - then it's probably best just to leave them to continue.
Currently Somalia is doing well out of a lucrative trade at the expense of wealthy nations with little harm done, perhaps just leaving them to it is an option. Until the violence escalates.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe the unemployed in Britain and France should be allowed to do the same thing. We cant allow discrimination can we. And anyway, why limit it to the sea. I reckon I should be allowed to hold up passing vehicles on the road outside. I wont harm the occupants I promise.
In the pirates favour, is that they generally treat the crews well. Since the shipping companies also seem to view it as more of a commercial transaction - a toll almost - then it's probably best just to leave them to continue.
Currently Somalia is doing well out of a lucrative trade at the expense of wealthy nations with little harm done, perhaps just leaving them to it is an option. Until the violence escalates.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe the unemployed in Britain and France should be allowed to do the same thing. We cant allow discrimination can we. And anyway, why limit it to the sea. I reckon I should be allowed to hold up passing vehicles on the road outside. I wont harm the occupants I promise.
Judders
Well-Known Member
Do these organisations have a recruitment website?
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
With the escalation in both numbers and geographical spread it is only a matter of time before the pirates extend their net worldwide. They are making vast profits and have virtually unlimited cash to purchase boats, helicopters, weaponry and footsoldiers so why should they limit themselves to the Gulf of Aden?
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
Exactly...... I bet there are insurgency, militias and terrorist groups all over the world right now thinking "umhhhhhhh".....
I needs dealing with on the water, and dealing with fast and effectively
I needs dealing with on the water, and dealing with fast and effectively
dulcibella
Well-Known Member
Isn't the real problem that this is a collapsed state with no government? Responding to force with force is not likely to be very effective.
Phoenix of Hamble
Well-Known Member
yes, but in the short term, its got to be clear that there are real downsides to piracy, as well as fortunes to be made
nimbusgb
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Isn't the real problem that this is a collapsed state with no government? Responding to force with force is not likely to be very effective.
[/ QUOTE ]
And what would a substantial state do? Tell them they are naughty boys and to stop it? Riiiiight!
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Isn't the real problem that this is a collapsed state with no government? Responding to force with force is not likely to be very effective.
[/ QUOTE ]
And what would a substantial state do? Tell them they are naughty boys and to stop it? Riiiiight!
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
jb2008
Well-Known Member
Never mind the unemployed, I'm considering it myself, there's big money in piracy. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
They're not our ships, it's not our water, it's not our money. So why waste our money ineffectually patrolling the sea there?
It's a job for Egypt, Saudi, Iran, UAE (Money), Yemen (some of their people doing it) and apparently Liberia, Korea and Thailand (Flagged ships), Phillipines, Indonesia and Ukraine (Crew). Since none of these people care, why should we?
Given the number of UK flagged vessels, I'm sure the RN could arrange regular convoys for them. Those of other flags are none of our business.
So far it's affected 2 Brits (working overseas, so probably not even paying tax) who will be released shortly. The cost is a fleet of 7 warships constantly patrolling.
Incidentally the Straight of Melaka is the other pirate hotspot, sandwiched between those other "failed" states; Malaysia and Singapore.
They're not our ships, it's not our water, it's not our money. So why waste our money ineffectually patrolling the sea there?
It's a job for Egypt, Saudi, Iran, UAE (Money), Yemen (some of their people doing it) and apparently Liberia, Korea and Thailand (Flagged ships), Phillipines, Indonesia and Ukraine (Crew). Since none of these people care, why should we?
Given the number of UK flagged vessels, I'm sure the RN could arrange regular convoys for them. Those of other flags are none of our business.
So far it's affected 2 Brits (working overseas, so probably not even paying tax) who will be released shortly. The cost is a fleet of 7 warships constantly patrolling.
Incidentally the Straight of Melaka is the other pirate hotspot, sandwiched between those other "failed" states; Malaysia and Singapore.
terrywilson1234
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I needs dealing with on the water, and dealing with fast and effectively
[/ QUOTE ]
You know a way to do that? Call the shipping insurers and governments and sell then your idea for <Dr Evil> Ten Million, Million, Million dollars. </Dr Evil>
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Or are you merely proposing killing and capturing pirates wherever they can be found without causing a massacre of hostages or an environmental disaster. Which is exactly what happens already.
I needs dealing with on the water, and dealing with fast and effectively
[/ QUOTE ]
You know a way to do that? Call the shipping insurers and governments and sell then your idea for <Dr Evil> Ten Million, Million, Million dollars. </Dr Evil>
/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Or are you merely proposing killing and capturing pirates wherever they can be found without causing a massacre of hostages or an environmental disaster. Which is exactly what happens already.
