Poor Somalis

[terrywilson1234]

[ QUOTE ]
And what would a substantial state do? Tell them they are naughty boys and to stop it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. A return of rule of law backed by the West would end piracy from Somalia. Indeed it's the only effective way.

It also solves a big problem in all this - what to do with captured pirates. Kenya won't take them in forever. We don't want them in the UK. Much better if they can be tried in Somalia.

 

[terrywilson1234]

[ QUOTE ]
They're not our ships, it's not our water, it's not our money. So why waste our money ineffectually patrolling the sea there?

It's a job for Egypt, Saudi, Iran, UAE (Money), Yemen (some of their people doing it) and apparently Liberia, Korea and Thailand (Flagged ships), Phillipines, Indonesia and Ukraine (Crew). Since none of these people care, why should we?

Given the number of UK flagged vessels, I'm sure the RN could arrange regular convoys for them. Those of other flags are none of our business.

So far it's affected 2 Brits (working overseas, so probably not even paying tax) who will be released shortly. The cost is a fleet of 7 warships constantly patrolling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty smart point. Not a POV that I'd considered 'till now. Thanks.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

No it isn't exactly what happens already.

If it was exactly what happens already, then there wouldn't be 12 ships at anchor off Somalia, and 250 crew living as 'guests' of the pirates.....

Sadly, there is little real threat to the pirates... such a large area of water needs a much more concerted and large scaled effort......

 

[terrywilson1234]

[ QUOTE ]
No it isn't exactly what happens already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is. Read the papers.

Anyway, what's your idea for a water based way to fast & effectively deal with it? Don't be shy, tell all.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I do read the papers funnily enough..... so hooray, yesterday the Indian Navy got one...... shame about the 2 that succeeded in the same 48hr period..... hardly 'exactly what happens' is it?

My ideas.... don't have any... thats what we taxpayers fund the salary of military strategists and tacticians for.... except, i'd have thought that decoy's, armed Naval teams on ships, fast response air cover, special forces targetted ground action, etc would all be worthy of consideration surely?

I don't disagree with the fundamental points that the long term solution is dealing with the cause not the symptoms eg deliver a stable Somali government, and also that the nations listed above as flag states should be playing a big part.... but these things will all take a long time, and all the while the financial benefits will be strengthening the pirates, thus spreading their reach and emboldening their allies in other less than appealing groups around the planet....

 

[terrywilson1234]

[ QUOTE ]
I do read the papers funnily enough..... so hooray, yesterday the Indian Navy got one...... shame about the 2 that succeeded in the same 48hr period..... hardly 'exactly what happens' is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Killing or capturing pirates wherever they can be found without causing a massacre of hostages or an environmental disaster is exaclty what happens.

[ QUOTE ]
My ideas.... don't have any...

[/ QUOTE ]

I guessed.

[ QUOTE ]
worthy of consideration surely?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ideas that are worthy of consideration is hardly 'dealing with it fast and effectively on the water". If it was that simple it would have already been dealt with.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Lets not turn an interesting debate into a childish one.

I don't believe the 'answer being simple', and it having been 'dealt with already' are at all linked.... this is international politics, which is renowned for moving at the pace of an arthritic snail....

what is needed is action from those that now how, rather than the normal 'lets get together and discuss for a couple of years' that we have come to expect from politicians all over the planet.....

 

[terrywilson1234]

[ QUOTE ]
Lets not turn an interesting debate into a childish one.


[/ QUOTE ]

I had a legitimate point and you couldn't counter it.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

No, you had a legitimate point based on semantics rather than intent, and made it with a barbed comment.

Enough.... I have plenty of opportunity to debate elsewhere, and I'll save my energy for that...

Bye.

 

[jonjo]

[ QUOTE ]
Yup. A return of rule of law backed by the West would end piracy from Somalia. Indeed it's the only effective way.

[/ QUOTE ]
You have not had an opportunity to watch Blackhawk Down yet I assume?

The Yanks tried and limped away from the experience. A fundamentalist Government was taking shape in Somalia two years ago and for the first time in decades the streets of the capital city were cleaned.

Unfortunately because they prayed to the wrong god the West conspired to get that Government overthrown. We have yet to fully account for the mistakes of Bush/Blair international politics.

 

[Woodlouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And what would a substantial state do? Tell them they are naughty boys and to stop it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. A return of rule of law backed by the West would end piracy from Somalia. Indeed it's the only effective way.

It also solves a big problem in all this - what to do with captured pirates. Kenya won't take them in forever. We don't want them in the UK. Much better if they can be tried in Somalia.

[/ QUOTE ]
What we need to do, is invade Eyl, and then, take all the captured Pirates and tie them to stakes at the low tideline and leave them untill three tides have washed over them. Then, preserve their bodies in tar and hang them in a cage as a warning to all those who think piracy is a good idea.

It's what we used to do to them in the olden days, and hey, there's not been a pirate fleet in the Caribbean for 250 years so it must have worked.

 

[terrywilson1234]

[ QUOTE ]
What we need to do, is invade Eyl, and then, take all the captured Pirates and tie them to stakes at the low tideline and leave them untill three tides have washed over them. Then, preserve their bodies in tar and hang them in a cage as a warning to all those who think piracy is a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

As you well know pirates don't wear 'I am a Pirate' badges so either your plan is just nonsense, or what what is more likely, you are actually advocating picking some random people from the Somali population and killing them. The RN would refuse to do so and they'd be right to do so.

PS There is still piracy in the Caribbean.

 

[Slow_boat]

In the seventies in Indonesian waters we had 'Piracy Pickets' armed with pick handles, on deck at night. Orders were simple; Hit any hand or other body part that appeared over the bulwark.

 

[Woodlouse]

Who said picking people at random? Anyone you catch engaged in Piracy is executed as an example to anyone who might be thinking about it.

As for the caribbean, yes, there are incidences of violent crime at sea, but not a fleet of pirate ships stealing tankers. It's oppertunists thieving from yachts. Slightly different, that sort of thing happens everywhere.

 

[terrywilson1234]

[ QUOTE ]
Who said picking people at random? Anyone you catch engaged in Piracy is executed as an example to anyone who might be thinking about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said nothing about "engaged in piracy". You said go into one of the towns where we know a lot of pirates hang out and kill them. Since it's not possible to identify Pirates just by looking at them either your plan won't work or you're talking about just killing random people you find? Which is it?

 

[stephenh]

There is another view -

The Somalis have had no government for 20 odd years and no protection for their coastal waters.

Their fishing grounds have been stripped of tuna etc. by Japanese, Spanish and other nations, with very efficient factory trawlers leaving the local fishermen with bugger all.

Their coastal waters have been used by 1st world nations to dump toxic waste; after the tsunami, rotting corroded barrels appeared on their beaches and caused ( and are still causing) local health problems.

So...this is the free market... that is a 'free for all'....maybe they have decided to join in ?

 

[Woodlouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who said picking people at random? Anyone you catch engaged in Piracy is executed as an example to anyone who might be thinking about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You said nothing about "engaged in piracy". You said go into one of the towns where we know a lot of pirates hang out and kill them. Since it's not possible to identify Pirates just by looking at them either your plan won't work or you're talking about just killing random people you find? Which is it?

[/ QUOTE ]
I said "captured pirates." So neither guessing who are pirates or killing anyone you meet. I don't see why you're trying to be difficult. Maybe you're confused at the first stage of the plan to take over Eyl. This is only because you need somewhere local for the pirates so everyone who matters can see their pirates executed. We used to do it on the banks of the Thames with ours.

 

[terrywilson1234]

[ QUOTE ]
I said "captured pirates." So neither guessing who are pirates or killing anyone you meet.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the plan is nonsense then. You walk into one of the many priate towns, and kill everyone you can prove is a pirate. Which will be nobody becasue they'll either leave or if they stay they won't identify themselves as pirates. So even less effective than the current tactic where the occasional pirate does get brought to justice.

Plus, the USA tried to have a military force in Somalia and they got kicked out. Why would your plan be any different?

It's a stupid plan but Thanks for the laughs. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
We used to do it on the banks of the Thames with ours.

[/ QUOTE ]

After a trial to work out if they actually were pirates.

 

[matelot]

[ QUOTE ]
There is another view -

The Somalis have had no government for 20 odd years and no protection for their coastal waters.

Their fishing grounds have been stripped of tuna etc. by Japanese, Spanish and other nations, with very efficient factory trawlers leaving the local fishermen with bugger all.

Their coastal waters have been used by 1st world nations to dump toxic waste; after the tsunami, rotting corroded barrels appeared on their beaches and caused ( and are still causing) local health problems.

So...this is the free market... that is a 'free for all'....maybe they have decided to join in ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Socialist / communist bollocks! The only people that have dumped waste there (if anyone has) are criminals. Nothing to do with the "free market" as its generally understood. And nothing much to do with "1st world nations" either.

For that matter, its nothing much to do with fishing. Do you really think a Somali fisherman says to himself "there's no fish out there today so much as i dont like the idea I'm going to have to rob an oil company of 5 million" /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif Presumably using the same argument, British fishermen have decided that piracy is too much like hard work and they prefer social services instead.

The fishermen steal because they can do so, it pays and there is little real chance of capture. There is no government in Somalia because 1st world countries didnt like the Islamists and their treatment of women etc. Had we left them alone, there wouldnt be a piracy problem because the Islamists did what the Navy isnt allowed to do and guaranteed the death of anyone caught being a pirate. Now we have a problem and life for the Somalis is worse than ever.

 

[jb2008]

Agreed, the fisherman turned to stealing because the rewards are vast.

I'm not convinced of the "failed state" argument either, there's
significant piracy in the Straight of Melaka and there's not a
failed state in sight.

I doubt the British public has the stomach to resolve this with
force, my previous discussion with that abusive bloke
convinced me of that.

We can however protect the handful of British flagged vessels in the area. Those flying flags of convenience for tax purposes
can equally rest assured that the Liberian navy is there to
protect them.