Poor Somalis

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Bring back the Q-ships.

[/ QUOTE ] This was my thought too, but all the indications are that these guys are pretty sophisticated operators, often acting on inside information (how else would they have picked up a ship - even a VLCC - well out to sea and hundreds of miles from their home port?). If that's the case, they're likely to know which are the imposters, maybe?


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Not sure, I don't think they need inside information more than buying a few AIS receivers?
 
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For that matter, its nothing much to do with fishing. Do you really think a Somali fisherman says to himself "there's no fish out there today so much as i dont like the idea I'm going to have to rob an oil company of 5 million"

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Absolutely. That is what they do. Like everyone else in the world they make decisions about reward vs risk. The fact that there is no government, raises the stakes of anything. They are probably not 'bad people'; but they are doing things that we consider 'bad'. I don't imagine they consider for an instant the ethics of what they are doing. They believe they are stealing from immensely wealthy people (even when stripping a yacht with a retired couple onboard) they see people dying all around them and a few dead foreigners would hardly register (although how many victims have been killed or injured?). The descriptions of life in Somalian pirate towns reminded me very much of old whaling communities!

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Presumably using the same argument, British fishermen have decided that piracy is too much like hard work and they prefer social services instead.

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Exactly. For them, and for most of us, the risk-benefits don't lead to piracy on the high seas! Do you imagine for one instant that a British fisherman (or banker) would do any different in the same circumstances? We have had repeated threads on here about how to handle boatloads of refugees encountered at sea, all posters were prepared to let the refugees die before endangering their own boats. I feel the same. But where is the moral difference ?



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The fishermen steal because they can do so, it pays and there is little real chance of capture.

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Quite.

What they are doing is wrong by my standards. I think they should be stopped because they are interfering with my hobby and might raise the cost of fuel.
 
Just in case anyone is confused. This is what a pirate looks like.

rustic_pirate.jpg
 
If anyone is serious about ending piracy you have to make an exclusion Zone and licence all ships to pass through it (aid ships).

The rest will be destroyed on sight and no survivers rescued.

Sorry its easier to negotiate, pay ransoms and encourage more to take up this money making venture.

Sometimes Justice/ Morals/PC/ continuing life as we know it cannot be mutually achieved.
 
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I doubt the British public has the stomach to resolve this with force,

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The problem isn't a reluctance to solve the problem using force. The problem is the complete lack of a workable plan that will solve the problem using force.

The two suggestions I've heard involving a different level of force are 1) Flatten one of the towns that the Pirates operate out of and 2) take over one of the towns that the pirates operate out of, but kill only the people that can be identified
as Pirates.

A ten year old could point out the almost comedic glaring flaws in both plans.
 
Well said (and a clever post, thanks).

If it was the other way round, and Somalia was rich and Britain were poor and had no police force then English people would be stealing off Somalis.

Yes they must be stopped because they're messing with our way of life and as things are sooner or later hostages are going to get killed and a tanker is going to be emptied into the sea, but that doesn't mean we have to pretend these guys are any more monsters than we would be in their situation.
 
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Ah well. If your so clever and dismissive you think of something. Then we can all take it in turns to point out the faults in your thoughts.

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Has it crossed your mind that there is no simple solution?

Any ships that travel in convoy with escorts will be fine. (Unfortunately the Pirates won't dare to attack so this might be discounted in some quarters as lacking in violence!)

Beyond that I really can't offer anything if ships won't travel in convoy. The thought of 35 hostages getting wasted and an incomprehensibly large amount of oil getting released makes paying the ransom seem incredibly good value.


If you're looking for an idea that is dreadfully flawed but still way better than the two suggested how about:

I think we can all agree that when attacked on land the pirates will sink all the ships and kill all the hostages, therefore all the suggested plans so far involve sacrificing the hostages and causing an environmental disaster.

If we're prepared to tolerate that, why not just have a rule that says any hijacked ship will be sunk by airstrike at the first opportunity.

Solves the problem with minumum loss of innocent life and maximum Pirate deaths, but still at a horrific cost.
 
(how else would they have picked up a ship - even a VLCC

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How do you think !!!!!! A.I.S.

Simple beam antenna and can identify ships miles away as well as tracking some from the web,

I am horrified how easy it is to find out where certain ships are anywhere in the world by their positions being updated by Sat C etc and the positions shown on the companies web site.

There are sites showing where passenger ships are etc all over the world. The positions might not be accurate but it would be easy enough to plan a rendezvous point as the ships hold steady courses offshore.
 
Christ. The financial implications of setting up a convoy system would be fantastic. In fact, you may as well just close the Suez canal and go round the Cape of Good Hope because that'll sure as hell be cheaper, and possibly quicker. So you solution is basically to give in and don't go there. If your going to have convoys then you actually have to go on the offensive as well, which means, suprise, suprise chasing down and either killing or capturing the pirates.

Forget talking complicated solutions. Somalia is a mess, always has been, always will be. And oddly enough, the people doing the most to keep it that way are the Somalis. The way to stop piracy there is to make it the most dangous profession on earth, and make the gains not worth risking your life for.
 
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In fact, you may as well just close the Suez canal and go round the Cape of Good Hope because that'll sure as hell be cheaper, and possibly quicker.

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Does anyone know where Sirius Star was from-to when attacked ?

If you look at the (admittedly vague and conflicting) reports of its position when hijacked, I think it must have been heading for the Cape and not using Suez.
 
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If your going to have convoys then you actually have to go on the offensive as well, which means, suprise, suprise chasing down and either killing or capturing the pirates.

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Errr, isn't that a good thing? It solves the indentification problem. Anyone attacking a convoy or trying to board ships is for absolute certain a Pirate and before they capture ships doesn't have any hostages. Or does your blood lust subside a little when you know for a fact that the people you're killing are pirates and not hostages, women and random passers by???

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The way to stop piracy there is to make it the most dangous profession on earth, and make the gains not worth risking your life for.

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Yes, but as the current situation shows, there's no effective way to do that.

I think unknowingly you've hit the nail on the head. There's currently a very cheap and safe solution when a ship is hijacked. Unfortunately taking that solution fuels the problem. Perhaps the shipping companies feel it's cheaper to risk ransoms than to go round or convoy.

Which leaves us back in square one. There's no obvious solution.
 
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In fact, you may as well just close the Suez canal and go round the Cape of Good Hope because that'll sure as hell be cheaper, and possibly quicker.

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If you look at the (admittedly vague and conflicting) reports of its position when hijacked, I think it must have been heading for the Cape and not using Suez.

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I thought that larger ships can't go through Suez which suggests that perhaps it wasn't going through Suez.
 
Based on the proposals you appear to be advocating, in WW2, one should not have attempted to sink and destroy the U boat menace, but rather attempted to have held rational discussions! /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
You seem to be ignoring the facts that society has the right to defend itself and would appear to be proposing that those less fortunate than others have the right to take what they want....A Muggers charter no less! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
 
Based on the abusive blokes proposals, in WW2 we wouldn't have had any of the strategic bombing raids nor the nuclear attacks that finally ended it.

He's also ignoring the fact that piracy also occurs around relatively successful states. Unless he's advocating pushing Somalian society somewhere above Malaysian society the social worker approach isn't going to cut it.

Imposing rule of law might though, perhaps a fully fledged invasion? Or simply more backing of the Ethiopians?
 
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Based on the proposals you appear to be advocating, in WW2, one should not have attempted to sink and destroy the U boat menace,

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Yes, in my opinion the current Piracy outbreak and WW2 are on a dfifferent scale and require completely different solutions.
 
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Imposing rule of law might though

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Yes, many people, including myself, have been suggesting in this thread for some days that establishing rule of law in Somalia is the only long term solution to this problem.

Interestingly, some people have been opposing this view on the basis that some countries that have rule of law and governments still have a piracy problem.
 
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Why do you have to turn every debate into a torrent of personal abuse? Reported to moderator YET AGAIN.

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Reading up the thread I think you're being a little bit unfair with 'tirade of abuse'.

However, there have been two complaints about my posts 'upheld' in only 7 days and I can take a hint - be assured I won't post on YBW forums again.

Apologies to Dan and Snowleopard. (I mean that sincerely).
 
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