Poor Service from Ultraleds.com

[steve6367]

Not strictly boaty, but I have used them for boat LEDs in the past so I am sure others may too.

In order to make this a fair post I should point out I have spent £286.94 with Ultraleds since 2007 and until this latest order found their products to be of high quality. In January I ordered 2 standard domestic LED bulbs ( http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/bc10dww-dimmable-warm-white-6w50w-240v-bulb-p-2232.html )from them which arrived quickly as normal. At £17 each it was an experiment born out of interest rather than any hope to save money as they would clearly have to last a very long time to offset the purchase cost.

On the 04/02/2011 one of the units failed and Ultraleds sent me a replacement. Then in April the second unit failed and I contacted them again, this time they wanted the bulb sent back before replacement - fair enough. Before I sent them back the first replacement also failed so I sent all 3 back to them. It was at this point there response surprised me as they simply stated that the warrantee period (90 days) was over and that they would only replace 1 bulb. So at this point 3 have failed and I've effectively paid £38.29 for one bulb.

I e-mailed them to enquire as to why only one replacement was sent and received a short reply stating that:-
"Hi, One bulb has been sent although we only provide a 90 day warranty on these items and it has already passed"

To which I responded:-

"Thank you for your reply, however I do not agree that your position is correct in this matter.

10th January to 31st March when the fault was reported to you is 80 days, 10 days inside the 90 days you quote below. You replied on the 1st of April with a returns number so I can be confident you received this notification.

In any event the 90 day warrantee that you offer is in addition to statutory consumer rights which sate the product you supply must be:

of satisfactory quality
fit for purpose
as described

Whilst the LED units supplied are as described, the 3 units I have received so far have not been of satisfactory quality or fit for purpose given they have all failed after very few hours use in a standard un-dimmed domestic light fitting.

I would like you to replace both failed units, with units that will last more than a few hours and refund the cost of standard return postage.

I would also be interested to know if you have any idea why these 3 units have failed so quickly? I have many Ultra LED's bulbs and so far they are all still working perfectly.

Many thanks"

Their reply:-

"Hi,

WE replaced one faulty bulb within the warranty period- the other failed after the warranty expired.

Light bulbs do not have to have any additional warranty other than “dead on arrival” which is why light bulbs are excluded from most warranty schemes"

And final reply from me:-

"Both original bulbs failed within the 90 days you quote and the supplied replacement shortly after (but within 90 days of its supply). Do you think the failure rate I have experienced with this order is normal? If so why do you not advertise these bulbs with a life span in normal domestic use of 3 months? You home page refers to “.... and the bulbs last up to 10 times longer than a standard light bulb or compact florescent.” The purpose of the last paragraph in my last e-mail was to see if you think I have somehow caused the failure of these bulbs. Given you did not respond to that question I assume this is not the case and therefore can’t see why you are not willing to replace the remaining bulb.


With regard to my legal rights I am not referring to warranty or warranty schemes, but standard consumer legal rights in which I can see no exclusion for bulbs. Below are 2 relevant sections and an explanation of how I think they apply to this situation.

be of satisfactory quality. This means that the goods should be free of any faults, including minor ones. They should be of the quality that a reasonable person would expect given the description, price and any other relevant circumstances. You can take into account the appearance and finish of the goods, and whether there are any defects (including minor ones). You can also take into account whether publicized information about specific features of the goods is accurate, and whether the goods are safe when used properly

be fit for the purpose. This means that you must be able to use them for the purposes that you would normally expect from this type of product, or any purpose that you have told the seller you want to use them for
match their description. This means that if there is a verbal or written description of the goods, it must be accurate. And if you choose goods after seeing a sample, your goods must match the sample.

With regard to these bulbs I do not believe they have been either of satisfactory quality or fit for purpose. On your home page you state that “By using Led Light Bulbs you can save up to 90% of your electricity costs plus reducing the heat output and the bulbs last up to 10 times longer than a standard light bulb or compact florescent” Given this description a reasonable person would expect a life of longer than 3 months in normal domestic use. The product also carries a premium price at £17.50, which again would lead a reasonable person to conclude they would be of a very high quality and long life. With regard to being fit for purpose, I have used these bulbs in a normal domestic situation in a standard ceiling rose on a simple switch which I believe to be their intended use.

Can I ask you to consider again your position on this matter.

Many thanks"

I have received no reply to this e-mail and thought I'd ask the panel what they think - move on and chalk it down to experience? Or involve card company etc?

The whole thing is really disappointing, not only because I think they are wrong but there very short replies really don't give you any impression of customer service.

All thoughts gratefully received.

Steve

 

[prv]

As you know, their blather about warranties is irrelevant, and the question under SOGA is whether the lifetime is less than you might reasonably expect. A normal lightbulb would last longer than that, and one of the selling points of LEDs is that they last longer than normal lightbulbs. The price you paid wasn't a super-cheap discount rate implying a lower-quality product. So in my non-expert opinion I'd say you have a pretty good case.

Question is what to do about it. Small Claims track fees are what, £30 or so, refunded if you win? Personally, if they'd pissed me off I'd probably send them a "letter before action" and then initiate the process (moneyclaimonline.gov.uk from memory) if I didn't like the response. But that's me being bloodyminded, and may not make sense from a purely rational point of view.

A company with an ounce of sense would fold when they got the first court document through, although a one-man-band brings emotions into play and might not do the rational thing. I'd still expect them to lose though.

Pete

 

[VicS]

Not the first complaint about the quality of goods from Ultraleds nor about their service!

This thread produced a response from their complaints and returns dept assuring us that all problems had been resolved.

Recently been a uncomplimentary thread about them too.

 

[vyv_cox]

Sorry to hear of your experience. You did better than me, I never even received a reply. I have posted at least ten times on this forum warning people about the extremely poor customer service of Ultraleds, one of them in the past week or so.

I believe that they are blessed with a particularly clever name that brings them a great deal of business in the automotive area. Consequently they are in a strong position and take very little notice of complaints.

There are plenty of companies out there who sell the same stuff at about the same price, but they have a very different attitude to customers.

 

[SimonJ]

Ultra leds

Although in the past I have felt able to recommend these people (or the one person that I think runs it) I have since been disappointed by the high failure rate. As you have found all sorts of excuses are given, maybe the odd one out of a batch will be replaced. Not one of the items I have purchased has lasted whithout some form of degradation for longer than a few months. In fact I have 3 failed items on my desk right now! Friends to whom I have foolishly recommended this company have unfortunately reported much the same as you.
You are not alone! Others should draw their own conclusions.

 

[CharlesSwallow]

LEDs? A Joke

MY experiment with one of their lamps ended in the unit packing up within six months. A replacement lasted only two months so I've decided that we will NOT be swapping to LED lighting on the boat. Neither the output nor the service life are there yet.

In a similar vein, I bought two "Compact flouescent" R63 replacements for our home kitchen six months ago from B&Q. One failed last week although they claim some 27000hrs life. I replaced it with similar but then noticed how the light output of it's partner had diminished significantly. Although they are not cheap, I replaced this too. However this is the end of the experiment so "energy saving bulbs" will NOT become a feature of ANY of our premises, nor the boat. I can still get as many filament bulbs with bayonet caps as I like at "Profi", just down the road from Gouvia Marina since the Greeks don't seem to know about the EU ban!

Chas

 

[vyv_cox]

There seem to be big variations. I replaced a couple of the failed Ultraleds festoon bulbs with some bought at the Peveza Marine chandlery. They have performed very well, reasonably bright and a considerable consumption saving.

 

[fireball]

We bought 2 G4 led bulbs from this company - again -not cheap hence only 2 as it was an experiment ...
So far (touch wood) the bulbs have been fine - both are too bright for the fore & aft cabin so I'll get some cheaper 6 led ones (existing are 9 and 12) ... with these reports I don't think I'll be going back to ULED though!

 

[nimbusgb]

Ultraleds sells the same units as are available from drop shippers in China via e-Bay. A lot of posts have been made about buying from a reputable local supplier in spite of the higher price and thus ensuring you get a good backup service.

Not one of my e-bay purchased, low cost LED units have failed as yet. Some have been in for slightly more than 4 years and those are the two main saloon illumination over the saloon table.

 

[changeman]

Dont believe there is any exception to 12 month statutory rights in Sale of Goods Act, although this would come under the distance selling regs.
However, you might contact them again and threaten them with both Trading Standards and then County Court action.
You are also entitled under Sale of Goods to claim any incidental expenses incurred by yourself arising from your claim.

 

[prv]

Dont believe there is any exception to 12 month statutory rights in Sale of Goods Act

It doesn't work like that. The requirement is that the item last as long as a reasonable person would expect, given the nature of the item and the price paid. A £500 dining room table and a 50p market-stall torch have very different expected lifetimes. Ultimately a court decides what's reasonable in any particular case.

The specific time limits are 1) within 6 months of sale it's up to the retailer to prove that it wasn't faulty when sold, whereas after 6 months it's up to you to prove that it was and 2) after six years the normal statute of limitations kicks in and I *think* you can no longer bring a claim. This works differently in Scotland as it's 5 years from discovering the fault rather than 6 years from sale.

although this would come under the distance selling regs.

They're not mutually exclusive - SOGA still applies as well. I don't *think* DSRs will be helpful here, although it's a while since I read them and there could be something. The only possibility I'm aware of is if UltraLEDs didn't inform you of your right to cancel - then you get three months instead of the normal 7 days and maybe you're still within that.

I think installing and using the bulbs for a time would count as "acceptance", and I'm not sure whether accepting the goods prevents you cancelling - it would make sense because the idea of the 7-day period is to allow you time to decide not to accept them. So overall I think DSRs is a red herring here and I'd stick with the SOGA approach.

Pete

 

[Conachair]

MY experiment with one of their lamps ended in the unit packing up within six months. A replacement lasted only two months so I've decided that we will NOT be swapping to LED lighting on the boat. Neither the output nor the service life are there yet.

The output and life are there, plenty cruisers use them. Sounds like you've just had duff units. IMHO they are worth it, lots light and tiny power draw. Ultra seem to get a lot of flak, bedazzled have been great , so far anyway.

 

[rotrax]

Ultraleds sells the same units as are available from drop shippers in China via e-Bay. A lot of posts have been made about buying from a reputable local supplier in spite of the higher price and thus ensuring you get a good backup service.

Not one of my e-bay purchased, low cost LED units have failed as yet. Some have been in for slightly more than 4 years and those are the two main saloon illumination over the saloon table.

Hi, Same with my LED conversion to all our internal lamps. Purchased MR16 20 and 36 watt equivilents from an EBAY supplier over 2 years ago-no total failures allthough two of the 36w types have lost a couple of individual LED's. Total current draw with all internal LED lamps on less than 2 amps-about the same as two filament bulbs! We have 15 internal lamps converted,bulbs and bulb holders cost £32.00.

 

[Heckler]

Not strictly boaty, but I have used them for boat LEDs in the past so I am sure others may too.

In order to make this a fair post I should point out I have spent £286.94 with Ultraleds since 2007 and until this latest order found their products to be of high quality. In January I ordered 2 standard domestic LED bulbs ( http://www.ultraleds.co.uk/bc10dww-dimmable-warm-white-6w50w-240v-bulb-p-2232.html )from them which arrived quickly as normal. At £17 each it was an experiment born out of interest rather than any hope to save money as they would clearly have to last a very long time to offset the purchase cost.

On the 04/02/2011 one of the units failed and Ultraleds sent me a replacement. Then in April the second unit failed and I contacted them again, this time they wanted the bulb sent back before replacement - fair enough. Before I sent them back the first replacement also failed so I sent all 3 back to them. It was at this point there response surprised me as they simply stated that the warrantee period (90 days) was over and that they would only replace 1 bulb. So at this point 3 have failed and I've effectively paid £38.29 for one bulb.

I e-mailed them to enquire as to why only one replacement was sent and received a short reply stating that:-
"Hi, One bulb has been sent although we only provide a 90 day warranty on these items and it has already passed"

To which I responded:-

"Thank you for your reply, however I do not agree that your position is correct in this matter.

10th January to 31st March when the fault was reported to you is 80 days, 10 days inside the 90 days you quote below. You replied on the 1st of April with a returns number so I can be confident you received this notification.

In any event the 90 day warrantee that you offer is in addition to statutory consumer rights which sate the product you supply must be:

of satisfactory quality
fit for purpose
as described

Whilst the LED units supplied are as described, the 3 units I have received so far have not been of satisfactory quality or fit for purpose given they have all failed after very few hours use in a standard un-dimmed domestic light fitting.

I would like you to replace both failed units, with units that will last more than a few hours and refund the cost of standard return postage.

I would also be interested to know if you have any idea why these 3 units have failed so quickly? I have many Ultra LED's bulbs and so far they are all still working perfectly.

Many thanks"

Their reply:-

"Hi,

WE replaced one faulty bulb within the warranty period- the other failed after the warranty expired.

Light bulbs do not have to have any additional warranty other than “dead on arrival” which is why light bulbs are excluded from most warranty schemes"

And final reply from me:-

"Both original bulbs failed within the 90 days you quote and the supplied replacement shortly after (but within 90 days of its supply). Do you think the failure rate I have experienced with this order is normal? If so why do you not advertise these bulbs with a life span in normal domestic use of 3 months? You home page refers to “.... and the bulbs last up to 10 times longer than a standard light bulb or compact florescent.” The purpose of the last paragraph in my last e-mail was to see if you think I have somehow caused the failure of these bulbs. Given you did not respond to that question I assume this is not the case and therefore can’t see why you are not willing to replace the remaining bulb.


With regard to my legal rights I am not referring to warranty or warranty schemes, but standard consumer legal rights in which I can see no exclusion for bulbs. Below are 2 relevant sections and an explanation of how I think they apply to this situation.

be of satisfactory quality. This means that the goods should be free of any faults, including minor ones. They should be of the quality that a reasonable person would expect given the description, price and any other relevant circumstances. You can take into account the appearance and finish of the goods, and whether there are any defects (including minor ones). You can also take into account whether publicized information about specific features of the goods is accurate, and whether the goods are safe when used properly

be fit for the purpose. This means that you must be able to use them for the purposes that you would normally expect from this type of product, or any purpose that you have told the seller you want to use them for
match their description. This means that if there is a verbal or written description of the goods, it must be accurate. And if you choose goods after seeing a sample, your goods must match the sample.

With regard to these bulbs I do not believe they have been either of satisfactory quality or fit for purpose. On your home page you state that “By using Led Light Bulbs you can save up to 90% of your electricity costs plus reducing the heat output and the bulbs last up to 10 times longer than a standard light bulb or compact florescent” Given this description a reasonable person would expect a life of longer than 3 months in normal domestic use. The product also carries a premium price at £17.50, which again would lead a reasonable person to conclude they would be of a very high quality and long life. With regard to being fit for purpose, I have used these bulbs in a normal domestic situation in a standard ceiling rose on a simple switch which I believe to be their intended use.

Can I ask you to consider again your position on this matter.

Many thanks"

I have received no reply to this e-mail and thought I'd ask the panel what they think - move on and chalk it down to experience? Or involve card company etc?

The whole thing is really disappointing, not only because I think they are wrong but there very short replies really don't give you any impression of customer service.

All thoughts gratefully received.

Steve

I bought led G4s from Atenled, they have been in use for nerly 3 years, no probs.
http://www.atenlighting.co.uk/home.php?cat=
No connection except a satisfied customer
Stu

 

[CharlesSwallow]

The output and life are there, plenty cruisers use them. Sounds like you've just had duff units. IMHO they are worth it, lots light and tiny power draw. Ultra seem to get a lot of flak, bedazzled have been great , so far anyway.

We'll agree to differ then?

A friend's business went A/T selling high tech display LEDs and Jaguar Cars was one of their clients for motor shows worldwide. reason: reliability

Maybe in a few years.

Chas

 

[Shuggy]

Ultraleds were ****heads when I last dealt with them 4 years ago, and posted here on the subject, and sound like they are still ****heads now. I felt strongly about this at the time! You can buy cheaper and better from China on eBay. And you do not have to deal with offensive idiots like these people.

 

[BGW]

Do the bulbs that failed (from ultaleds) have surge protectors built in? - The reason I ask, is that the bulbs I got from Bedazzled do, and the reason that they do is to protect then from the high voltage fluctuations that can occur when starting the engines. (the suppliers words, not mine, but I took his word for it)
I have had my Bedazzled bulbs (12 of them) in for 2 years now with quite a lot of use and not one failure so far.

 

[pteron]

MY experiment with one of their lamps ended in the unit packing up within six months. A replacement lasted only two months so I've decided that we will NOT be swapping to LED lighting on the boat. Neither the output nor the service life are there yet.

The problem with LED replacement household lamps is that they generally drive the LEDs close to their maximum temp tolerance to get the required light output. The LED manufacturers are constantly improving the lumens/watt though, so I'd expect a reasonably reliable bulb to be available in the next year or so.

At the moment, I wouldn't buy one without a much longer warranty than 90 days!

 

[coromar]

Bedazzled LED light fittings

Hi all,

Another vote for "Bedazzled". This is a company who seem to care about their customers.

I have bought several led lights from them and all are still working.

The owner of the firm spent some time on the phone to me answering all my questions without having an order from me at that time.

I recomend this company and their products. ( I'm only a satisfied customer)

Best wishes,

Paul

 

[vyv_cox]

Do the bulbs that failed (from ultaleds) have surge protectors built in? - The reason I ask, is that the bulbs I got from Bedazzled do, and the reason that they do is to protect then from the high voltage fluctuations that can occur when starting the engines. (the suppliers words, not mine, but I took his word for it)
I have had my Bedazzled bulbs (12 of them) in for 2 years now with quite a lot of use and not one failure so far.

The festoon bulbs I bought from ultraleds were used in the heads, forecabin and wet locker. I doubt if the engine was ever started when they were turned on. The mains battery charger was not used at the time, only solar panels. The first individual LED began flickering one hour after the unit was turned on and the whole unit was dead within a month. All six, plus a bayonet replacement used in the camper van, had failed in six months.