Plotter essential?

[Baggywrinkle]

how does the Navionics deal with it?

Tinkers hole ... this is like a trip down memory lane

We anchored there a few times in the 80s after my dad attempted to pull a power cable supplying Iona off the seabed with our bruce anchor and decided it was time to leave. It was an Albin Vega called "Dobhran".

 

[awol]

Your point is well made for sailing in this kind of territory but to be fair these are in tight channels that I'm guessing most of us wouldn't venture into without some local knowledge.

There's always the first time! Baggywrinkle admits to sphincter clenching moments in these waters prior to electronics - I'm just suggesting relaxation of his orifice is premature even with a chartplotter, particularly as he sails a boat where clearance between the keel and rocks is more crucial than with mine.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Relying on anything electrical on board is not a good idea, hence we carried charts and why and never wasted money on a plotter or computer charts.

This is the only appropriate response I can think of........

You said you use radar instead of a plotter - it's electrical. What do you propose as backup in fog?

 

[FWB]

>As for paper charts, well if you have an iPad you can stuff it with up to date charts and use that as your back up to the fixed plotter. Not only that the iPad will be a plotter as well.

If you put charts on a computer it can fail just as a plotter can. That's why you must carry charts as a backup.

>Could you please explain why?

The reason is above. Relying on anything electrical on board is not a good idea, hence we carried charts and why and never wasted money on a plotter or computer charts.

If you are paranoid about technology, get 2 iPads. You can load the second one with the same charts as the first one for no extra charge. The charts will be updated free, a much better deal than paper .....save trees too

 

[Baggywrinkle]

There's always the first time! Baggywrinkle admits to sphincter clenching moments in these waters prior to electronics - I'm just suggesting relaxation of his orifice is premature even with a chartplotter, particularly as he sails a boat where clearance between the keel and rocks is more crucial than with mine.

Oi ... don't start that one again. ... I confess to using paper charts and pilot books too, as a cross-check. If a hazard is marked on any of them, I assume it is there and do my best to avoid it - for obvious reasons

 

[ChrisE]

There's always the first time! Baggywrinkle admits to sphincter clenching moments in these waters prior to electronics - I'm just suggesting relaxation of his orifice is premature even with a chartplotter, particularly as he sails a boat where clearance between the keel and rocks is more crucial than with mine.

In all seriousness, if were to sail around there, a bit like Norway where I have sailed, I'd use transits for my passage making and use mk1 eyeball for submerged rocks. Regardless of how well an area is charted a. they are not all found yet (see story below) and b. not necessarily marked in the right place.

Admiralty charts are by no means foolproof, a friend of mine hit an uncharted rock off the N coast of France, it was shown on the SHOM charts but not the Admiralty which is what he was using.

 

[LadyInBed]

Here's another example - how does the Navionics deal with it?

I don't use Navionics but OpenCPN shows the example I think you are referring to.
Underwater rock / awash rock (UWTROC)
056 17.2819 N 006 23.2755 W

 

[prv]

Lightning strikes are more common than most people think [...]
When his problem was being discussed over sundowners in the cockpit, the best we could come up with was to keep a hand held GPS in a tin box (like a biscuit tin), as a Faraday cage, with it´s batteries out

Got that

An old coffee tin, having been tested for watertightness and with the lid sealed with tape, containing a handheld GPS (very old type, I wasn't going to spend much money on this), a portable fishfinder, and a stock of AA batteries with expiry dates in 2020. Currently in my shed, but going to squirrel it away in some unused space in the new boat. Fully expect never to need it, but if I ever do, my god will I be smug

Pete

 

[zzyyxx]

You may or may not not know that planes and RN subs no longer carry paper charts and have triple redundancy.

When HMS Astute went aground they were using paper charts.

I expect you two to step outside and settle this like gentlemen.


..and then one of you tell me whether they carry paper charts or not.

 

[FWB]

I expect you two to step outside and settle this like gentlemen.


..and then one of you tell me whether they carry paper charts or not.

It's in the report page 2 " the submarine was navigating on chart 2480, which was on the plot...."

Here is the report https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ata/file/27118/astute_grounding_si_report.pdf

You can read also that their equivalent of a plotter was u/s. My boat was better equipped for navigation, than HMS Astute.
In fact anyone with an iPhone and the Navionics app was better equipped.

As for aircraft, I last flew a 777 nine years ago. We used the nav display to navigate but carried and used charts for reference. Not the same thing as having a plotter on a boat. The plotters for boats have equivalent map details to charts. The nav displays on aircraft do not.

 

[zzyyxx]

You can read also that their equivalent of a plotter was u/s. My boat was better equipped for navigation, than HMS Astute.

I was going to say but hopefully they're better trained....

As for aircraft, I last flew a 777 nine years ago.

...but perhaps not.

Thanks.

 

[Kelpie]

I would always give the pilot book the final say on anything remotely tricky. If it gives a clearing bearing, then that's the line I will take.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I would always give the pilot book the final say on anything remotely tricky. If it gives a clearing bearing, then that's the line I will take.

I almost got run over by a very angry ferry captain in April 2011 because the pilot book said the ferry docked on one side of a pier but it actually really docked on the other.
I came on deck with my morning coffee to see a rather large stern bearing down on me with a shouty man on deck because I had anchored very close to the space where he normally reversed round to get back out again. I double checked the Adriatic Pilot and the ferry was definately using the wrong side of the pier , but he wouldn't have any of it.

I penciled a note in the Pilot book to stay even further away in future.

 

[maby]

I've been following the 'Seems to be legal...' thread with some amazement.
Was particularly surprised by the number of people who seemed to regard a functioning chart plotter as essential/vital.
I find this point of view even stranger since most forumites seem to be of SAGA qualifying age.

Anyway, poll attached

Oh, come on! We of the SAGA qualifying age are the same ones who spent an enormous amount of time and money at Ripspeed, tarting up an old Ford Anglia with carbs that could have fueled a lorry, a pancake air filter that was too big to fit under the bonnet and an exhaust that could double up as a drainpipe. Once we had crammed all that on, we turned to the inside with a polished wood gearstick knob (that put another couple of MPH on it) and carbon fibre bucket seats!

We've grown out of pimping up cars now - I want my nav station to put the Queen Elizabeth to shame!

 

[Frankie-H]

"Saga qualifying age" often coincides with buying a seagoing vessel without knowing North from South. If you can't sail without screens you can't sail,full stop.

+1

 

[charles_reed]

Saga - I spent a long time in Cartagena, locked in struggle with an insurance company about a fatigue-fractured mast.

Lots of cruise boats docked there.

When the Saga cruise docked it was impossible to cycle through the old town for zimmer frames.

 

[mattonthesea]

HI

I guess because your chart plotter & charts normally carry a warning saying they are an aid to navigation and should not be relied on, and you should always carry another means to navigate your boat safely.

I guess that means that if your batteries go west and run aground due a navigational error, (hitting a well known sandbank or outside a channel, isolated rock, etc, your insurance Co would fight the claim (and rightly so), as you had no other back up so it is neglect of duty, not prudent seamanship, whatever.

You'll find nearly all commercial operators use paper charts as when bought they are corrected up to date, and you have weekly, monthly corrections to keep them up to date. Just how in date are your electronic charts? I know mine are quite a bit out and they are quite new.

As for their accuracy, well I've always found the cartography to be excellent, but it's position on the ground sometimes quite a bit out. Due I'm told to the original maps & sounding being accurate but the position of the actual islands, etc wrong, now with GPS being super accurate and all that, you'll find some big errors - Greece is classic example of this and they even use a different GPS data system (not WGS84).

So in areas like this then a paper chart is more accurate, as YOU have to determine where you are, you are not relying on GPS and electronic charts.

Anyway, I'm no ludite but still carry paper for the area I'm working in, and it doesn't eat electric either!

sorry to be off topic but just recognised Ariadne. Just to say hi from Matt on Safe Arrival

 

[webcraft]

.
We've enjoyed close quarters coastal sailing much more since getting a plotter. Pointless offshore, but great right in among the scenery.

- W

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I don't like navigating by plotter. Not because I think it's likely to suddenly stop working, but because it feels like it's making me lazy and I don't like that. So most of the time I navigate by GPS and paper chart, with a Yeoman to automate some of the ruler-and-dividers work. This keeps me involved with the navigation and I think gives me a better appreciation of what's going on and what's around me, and lends itself better to incorporating other sources like visual fixes, clearing lines, etc.

Nevertheless, there are times when it is prudent to use a plotter if available - Dunedin's situation outlined upthread, for example. So I have one on board and do use it for things like entering unfamiliar harbours at night. On Kindred Spirit it was a portable unit - stowed on a shelf down below, mounted in the cockpit and plugged in when required. So it was easy and natural to ignore the thing until a conscious decision to use it was made. Not sure how this will work out on Ariam with a cockpit console. Having it sitting there switched off starts to look like bloody-mindedness

For more than a small area, charts work out more expensive than plotter cards. But you can at least update charts for free as often as you like. The card in my plotter was several years out of date as there's no way I was going to buy a new one just for the updates. Another reason charts are the "master" system on my boat; they are corrected to the last couple of months at worst.

Pete

I agree with all that, especially the first paragraph. When you have to work out headings, tracks, etc. and plot them on a chart you realise what's going on. With a plotter I've seen people just shove a waypoint in and start plugging away against a tide - I've not appreciated the current myself on more than occasion as well. I've also watched a chap shove in a course which took him straight through some overfalls. I mentioned them to him and he was quite surprised at my idea to actually use a different heading to miss them - apparently he normally waited until a problem appeared and then steered round it!

 

[jerrytug]

.
We've enjoyed close quarters coastal sailing much more since getting a plotter. Pointless offshore, but great right in among the scenery.u

- W

Amazing,I'm the opposite: proper paper pilotage if
there is land in sight,but a glance at a screen offshore if precision doesn't matter!