PLease educate me about Catamarans

[whipper_snapper]

The only sort of cat capable of long-distance voyaging you'll get for that budget is something like a Wharram. ....not spacious.

Well, plenty spacious enough in good weather! But no way would I sail a Wharram in N Europe.

In general, any reasonably performing, reasonably modern cat will be WAY faster than an equivalent monohull off the wind and significantly slower on the wind. I reckon that if you say you have 270 degrees of direction options, a cat will be faster for 180 degrees slower for 45 degrees, and stopped or going backwards for the closest 45 degrees that a monohull could make progress with.

In my experience they are far more comfortable than a monohull under almost all circumstances. Because they provide such a large, stable platform, things like sail changes are a doddle compared to fighting on the narrow plunging foredeck of a monohull.

This is us, in a Wharram, in the tropics, off the wind, just eating up the distance far faster and flatter than a monohull of the same length could achieve.

However, you might ask why there is no film of the return upwind journey!!!

 

[snowleopard]

Well, plenty spacious enough in good weather! But no way would I sail a Wharram in N Europe.

We met a young couple on a 20ish ft Wharram in Mevagissey a couple of years ago. They slept in a tent on the bridgedeck. The weather was pretty miserable that week and they were pleased to come over to us for a cup of tea indoors. The weather didn't seem to put them off and they were away next morning in full oilies, heading for the Exe.

We considered a Wharram 50 footer for long-distance travel when we were a lot younger but even then thought it was too cramped below. I'm strictly a comfort lover.

 

[NealB]

I've owned a truly embarrassing numbers of boats over the years....racy monohulls (Carter 33), solid family cruisers (Westerly Discus, Moody 33), old, classic, wooden gaff cutter, motorsailer (Seadog 30).......and a couple of catamarans (Wharram Pahi 31 and, currently, a Comanche 32).

I love the cockpit and deck space of the Comanche, and the accomodation works well. She is fast (by cruising standards) off the wind: we've had over 13 knots on the log on several occasions (the Wharram was even faster, but was too cramped below for UK cruising). To windward, she is, to be totally honest, not that satisfying. She tacks without hesitation (unlike some cats I've sailed), but will not point like a fin keeler and makes lots of leeway.

We've got a single 9.9hp Yamaha high thrust outboard. I am very happy with this, it drives her very easily, and is capable of helping us to windward in very strong winds. Close quarters handling is, of course, 'interesting' if there's a cross wind: shallow keels, high topsides, single engine with no propwash over the rudders, certainly can make it challenging.....but we've always managed without drama (that's 6 years ownership, so far).

Personally, I'd quite like a change again...possibly back to a wooden classic, but Joscelyn loves the Comanche, so we'll probably keep her for a while yet.

Fir the OP, looking at motor sailer stype performance, I'd have thought a Heavenly twin or Catalac could be ideal.

Good luck!

 

[jamesjermain]

The cases for and against cats have been made pretty well here already and I have to agree that with your budget and requirements you are in a difficult position.

One model which hasn't been mentioned and which might fit the bill is the old Macalpine-Downie 30ft Iroquois. Ones in reasonable condition go for around £15,000. In their day they were regarded as high performance machines but today most similar sized monos will match them up wind but not on a reach. They have swing keels for very shallow draught and a modest sail plan so the4y are safe. Don't go for a mark 1 which had a bigger rig and was a bit capsize prone

From your point of view there are a couple of snags. First they only come with outboard engines. These are quite adequate for manoeuvring and can be lifted to reduce drag, but they aren't so good motoring to windward and charging is limited. Second the btridgedeck headroom is low. I, at 6ft 2in, struggle to find comfortabale sitting headroom in some parts of the saloon. The hulls, though have plenty of clearance.
Iroquois have covered big distances and crossed oceans but I regard them as mainly coastal and cross Channel cruisers.

PS I've just remembered the now rare Comanchee (also by M-D), a 32ft cruising sister of the Iroquois. This has much better headroom and accommodation generally and if you can find one in reasonable condition could be just the thing. There is an even bigger sister, the 40ft Apache which is a great ocean cruiser but I've no idea how mcuh you would have to spend for one of those these days.

 

[alant]

Bedouin: Large cats with an engine in each hull, are actually very easy to maneuver in a marina and with a bit of practice you can almost drive them sideways. Windage is definitely an issue, but can be countered with judicious use of the throttles.

In cruising trim, and if we are talking about the typical production cat here, they are not that much faster than a monohull and depending on design, are often slower. Fast cats don't usually make great cruising cats, as you have to keep them light in order to achieve the speed. A good example of a lighter cruising cat from down my part of the world is Malcolm Tennant's Nothern 11

http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/index.php?page=northern---11

I've sailed an extended version of this and can say that it will sail rings around a similar sized Lagoon, but the Lagoon is way more comfortable. There is a decent shot of a Bladerunner sailing past a Lagoon on you tube. Looks like the Lagoon is standing still.

MaxCampbell: Go ahead, tell me that mono's don't sink.

I am a multihull fan, and still regularly sail them, racing Hobie 16's and maintaining a 28 foot cruising cat for a friend while he works offshore, but for the same reasons others have posted here ie. mooring costs and purchase price, have mono's (a Limbo 6.6 and a SO40). The SO40 gives us the same amount of living space as a 38 foot cat, but at half the cost to purchase, and a fraction of the cost to moor.

For the OP, your budget could possibly get you into an older Heavenly Twins, but you're likely to spend a heck of lot more getting it up to scratch, whereas you'll get into quite a nice older mono that may be capable of getting you around the world.

Cheers, PT.

Edit (apologies to MaxCampbell).

IMO, Heavenly Twins are one of the ugliest boats (?) afloat!

Catalacs being a very close second.

Also, both seem to ignore the original concept of cats, since they seem much too heavily laden.

For more fun, why not look at a Corsair Tri, with folding sponsons.

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/Sail/Multi-Hull/Corsair/Corsair+24+Mki+#56+Trailerable+Trimaran

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1992/Corsair-F-24-Mk-1-#47-2384208/United-States

 

[NealB]

PS I've just remembered the now rare Comanchee (also by M-D), a 32ft cruising sister of the Iroquois. This has much better headroom and accommodation generally and if you can find one in reasonable condition could be just the thing.

Greetings James!

Comanche is, indeed a great boat....but only one 'e' required!

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

A bit out of the budget, but if I hit the lottery I am having one of these.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

For more fun, why not look at a Corsair Tri, with folding sponsons.

I can't think of a much more inappropriate boat to suggest for someone who wants so sail round the world than a F24.

 

[jamesjermain]

Eee by gum!

 

[wytco0]

Wow and Thanks.

Wow amazing how a thread comes back to life and with a lot of useful information. Thanks.

I had come to the conclusion that the reason a Cat would not be any good for me is the cost, something half decent is more than I can afford at the moment.

I am still looking at all options but at the moment I seem to be mainly looking at bilge keels 26-28 foot yachts.

 

[wytco0]

For more fun, why not look at a Corsair Tri, with folding sponsons.

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/Sail/Multi-Hull/Corsair/Corsair+24+Mki+#56+Trailerable+Trimaran

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1992/Corsair-F-24-Mk-1-#47-2384208/United-States

Not a Corsair but I has a look round the outside of another folding tri last weekend, it was a Dragonfly (probably 28 foot) it didn't look as though it had much space inside but seemed very well built.

 

[fergie_mac66]

On my continuing quest to decide what sort of boat to buy I have recently been looking at motor sailors, but something in another thread got me thinking about catamarans. A Catamaran superficially at lease seems to be a good solution for me.

I am after the following:
1) Reasonable size which was why I had started to think about 30 foot motor sailors. I want degree of comfort but I cant afford much.
2) Comfortable for living aboard for reasonable periods of time (weeks to months)
3) ideally under £30k preferably under £20k.
4) inboard engine.
5) Capable of a trip round the UK or even RTW.


BUT I hadn't even thought of a catamaran as they seem to attract a lot of negative comments. However I am a novice and at my age I dont think I will ever be a great sailor and I am not interested in ultimate speed or performance. I aim to potter around enjoying myself but I want to be able to go places as well.

So please educate me on the pros and cons and suitability of a catamaran.

IMO, Heavenly Twins are one of the ugliest boats (?) afloat!

Catalacs being a very close second.

Also, both seem to ignore the original concept of cats, since they seem much too heavily laden.

For more fun, why not look at a Corsair Tri, with folding sponsons.

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/Sail/Multi-Hull/Corsair/Corsair+24+Mki+#56+Trailerable+Trimaran

http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1992/Corsair-F-24-Mk-1-#47-2384208/United-States

corsair ? doesn't exactly fit OP, A Catalac or HT probably would . . A lot of AWB are pretty average in the looks dep't IMO ! .Then again comfort has a lot to offer when at anchor or in a marina, More time is generally spent at one or the other.We have had an 9m and several mono's over the years, but life is a lot less tiring on a cat.Currently we have an 8m which we would only part with to get a 9m

lot of info on catalacs on this site

http://www.catamaransite.com/catalac_8m.html

(Tropic cats sig)

Edit beauty,s in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Tropic Cat]

Admittedly, it took a while, but I now believe my little Catalac to be beautiful. Also, remember that in the lives of all boats, 99% of their time with us is spent at anchor or at the dock. There's no argument that the comfort afforded by a catamaran is preferable.

 

[RichardS]

Now this is what I call a monster cat!

I took it when I anchored next to it near Korcula last August. I've no idea what it is but it must be 100 foot at least!

Can anyone give me a web link to it?

Richard


Found it! "IPHARRA is the biggest ever luxury yacht built in Poland and one of the biggest cruising catamarans of the world. She is also the FIRST sailing catamaran in the world from a Double Deck line, and the second biggest sloop rigged catamaran of the world."

I guessed "100 feet at least" and she turns out to be 102 so that's not too shabby!

Her beam is exactly the same as my LOA!

http://www.sunreef-yachts.com/model...assic,24,sunreef-102-double-deck-classic.html

 

[alahol2]

One model which hasn't been mentioned and which might fit the bill is the old Macalpine-Downie 30ft Iroquois. Ones in reasonable condition go for around £15,000. In their day they were regarded as high performance machines but today most similar sized monos will match them up wind but not on a reach. They have swing keels for very shallow draught and a modest sail plan so the4y are safe. Don't go for a mark 1 which had a bigger rig and was a bit capsize prone

From your point of view there are a couple of snags. First they only come with outboard engines. These are quite adequate for manoeuvring and can be lifted to reduce drag, but they aren't so good motoring to windward and charging is limited. Second the btridgedeck headroom is low. I, at 6ft 2in, struggle to find comfortabale sitting headroom in some parts of the saloon. The hulls, though have plenty of clearance.
Iroquois have covered big distances and crossed oceans but I regard them as mainly coastal and cross Channel cruisers.

We sailed an Iroquois for 13 years around the Channel. I think you have summed it up pretty well except when you say they are safe. That needs a lot of qualification. Yes, we sailed without ever having any qualms or even scary moments. We never pushed her hard but made good speed compared to our mono sailing companions of the same sort of size. However, before buying her she had been capsized with a previous owner. The day after we sold her she was capsized with her new owner. No-one was hurt in either case but 'safe', as I said, with a lot of qualifying clauses.
I have now gone back to mono-dom mainly because of the berthing/storage fees and the time required for maintenance.
Looking at the OP's original post I'd say the Catalacs are probably his best bet.

PS just seen this... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ocqueteau-Speed-944-Trimaran-Multihull-Sailing-Yacht-/230738171531?pt=UK_Sporting_Goods_Sailing_Boats_ET&hash=item35b911168b ...now, at the right price, that could tempt me back

 

[Yacht Breeze]

Iroquoi v Catalac

Yes, Iroquois will capsize if you're not careful. Many had buoyancy balls fitted to their masthead to prevent the boat turning a full 180 degrees when it would be more stable inverted than upright. But an Iroquois is not a Catalac. Chalk and cheese.

Catalacs are comfortable, safe cruisers. They do not win prizes for looks but perform their role well. There is always a stream of secondhand 8m and 9m Catalacs on the market at reasonable prices. Worth a look.

 

[NealB]

Yes, Iroquois will capsize if you're not careful. Many had buoyancy balls fitted to their masthead to prevent the boat turning a full 180 degrees when it would be more stable inverted than upright.

I once read that it was the Iroquois fitted with masthead floats that seemed to be prone to capsize. Those without stayed the right way up.

No idea of the accuracy of the claim!

 

[Yacht Breeze]

Buoyancy Balls

Maybe skippers with the floats felt safer and took more liberties!

 

[NealB]

Maybe skippers with the floats felt safer and took more liberties!

Indeed! Also...how much did the floats weigh? Could they adversely affect stability?

 

[alahol2]

Indeed! Also...how much did the floats weigh? Could they adversely affect stability?

Ours was quite heavy and surprisingly big. I'd say about the weight of a large child. I removed it after the first couple of seasons. It has capsized both with and without a float so the jury is out.