Pilot house, 40-45ft?

[Sea Change]

So this is very much hypothetical, but following on from my idle musings about doing skippered charter on the west coast, I'm browsing brokers' listings and I quite fancy the idea of a pilothouse or deck saloon type of thing. In an ideal world there would be two separate double cabins plus another single or double cabin for me. Mid 40ft range so that it's feasible for me to singlehand, with the aid of a bite thruster, self stowing anchor, lines led aft.

Nauticats might make sense but I presume they're an absolute handful in a confined space, which isn't ideal. Also I suspect the sailing performance isn't great?

There are a few Oysters which look lovely, they're more deck saloon than pilot house, bit definitely contenders.

I stumbled upon a Vancouver 38 pilot house which, other than being a bit small, looked very nice. Seems rather an old fashioned hull shape though, narrow at the stern with a lot of overhang.

I'm familiar with the Jeanneau 42DS and whilst it might do the job, it's not really the direction I'm leaning in. Not enough berths anyway.

For Scottish waters, I'm keen on a proper pilot house rather than relying on a cockpit enclosure.

Budget tbd, but under £200k. Ideally closer to £100k to leave ample for refit.

 

[Dino]

A Seastream 43 1989 Seastream 43 - Hartlepool Marina

Or I always liked the Wauquiez Pilot House boats WAUQUIEZ Wauquiez Pilot Saloon 43 2003 Used Boat for Sale in La Lanea de la Concepcian, Andalusia, Spain

Or would a smaller Amel work?

 

[Sea Change]

A Seastream 43 1989 Seastream 43 - Hartlepool Marina

Or I always liked the Wauquiez Pilot House boats WAUQUIEZ Wauquiez Pilot Saloon 43 2003 Used Boat for Sale in La Lanea de la Concepcian, Andalusia, Spain

Or would a smaller Amel work?

Both great suggestions, thanks.

I don't think there's an Amel that provides the necessary accommodation without going over size and budget. They seem to be quite narrow for their length.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Charter guests who go for skippered charters are probably going to tend towards novice or non-sailors otherwise they would do a bareboat.

With this in mind, a few criteria that IMO would suit that type of guest ...

1. Sail controls, main-sheets, wheels etc, need to be kept clear of the guest seating area in the cockpit. They are not going to cope well with clambering among sheets, winches, tripping over ropes and other sailing HW, or take well to a main-sheet and traveller slicing through the cockpit.
2. Getting on and off into the dinghy needs to be easy and safe - so a sugar scoop or rear platform would be advantageous over clambering up and down a ladder into the dinghy.
3. The cockpit needs to feel safe and spacious - I guess 4 guests is about the max on a boat that size, parents and kids or two couples. They need space to sit outside and enjoy the scenery without fighting for the best seats or feeling cramped - fresh air is a good remedy for sea-sickness and it's best to have sea-sick people outside sitting in the corner out of harms way for obvious reasons.
4. Washing and sleeping facilities for guests and crew need to be separate - so minimum 2 fully equipped bathrooms with showers.
5. A cosy but spacious interior for the inevitable times when the weather doesn't behave.
6. Kitchen area separate from the main seating area, either an L-shaped galley set back or a longitudinal one between a rear cabin and the main saloon. Don't want to be cooking on top of your guests.

A deck-saloon from any of the major manufacturers would provide this, even more so if you limited your guests to one couple at a time.

 

[lusitano]

Fisher 46 for sale Portugal, Fisher boats for sale, Fisher used boat sales, Fisher Sailing Yachts For Sale FISHER 46 - Apollo Duck

Ideal for Scotland.

 

[Tranona]

No question Nauticat 42. Nothing like the staid motor sailor types with an S&S designed hull. Very powerful sailing boat
networkyachtbrokers.com/boats_for_sale/Nauticat_42-22603.html/

at the top of your budget for an early one but not sure of prices at the moment because can't find any for sale. Several were sold in the UK so do come up from time to time.

 

[Frogmogman]

A Seastream 43 1989 Seastream 43 - Hartlepool Marina

Or I always liked the Wauquiez Pilot House boats WAUQUIEZ Wauquiez Pilot Saloon 43 2003 Used Boat for Sale in La Lanea de la Concepcian, Andalusia, Spain

Or would a smaller Amel work?

Really like the look of that Wauquiez. Very nice.

 

[dunedin]

…..

I stumbled upon a Vancouver 38 pilot house which, other than being a bit small, looked very nice. Seems rather an old fashioned hull shape though, narrow at the stern with a lot of overhang.

…..

To run as a business you need to put aside entirely personal preferences on boats, and think in terms of what the paying passengers will want and report on Trip Advisor.
The Vancouver is extremely small inside - more so than perhaps a modern 34 AWB.

Probably outside budget, but the sort of things passengers might want to come on - and importantly pay to come back on - might be more like a modern style Moody 45 DS - lots of windows to watch the views when weather a bit iffy, and lots of en-suite cabins.
Most paying passengers don’t like sharing smelly heads and showers.

 

[Minerva]

What’s your aim of the charter offering?

Adventure sailing? If so I’d be going for big rufty toughty metal boat that ‘looks’ the job - and potentially also be suitable to branch out to Faroes / Iceland trips too.

Artists / yoga / story telling trips / retreats?- From those that I follow on instagram, anything looks suitable really - was chatting to a chap the other year doing this with a big-ish sigma; lots of single bunks for low costs for guests but high occupancy. All looked very convivial

“Luxury” trips for a couple or family? Then probably a prestige marque; swan / oyster/ new moody DS or converted MFV. Something they could ‘know’ and when they tell their pals, their pals also ‘know’

Best of luck with your venture!

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Had a look at a Moody 45 DS at a dealer in Chiemsee ... sitting in the cockpit as a guest and not the helmsman you are very low without a commanding view of the surroundings. Bit disapointing actually as we were looking forward to lusting after it.

 

[Sea Change]

No question Nauticat 42. Nothing like the staid motor sailor types with an S&S designed hull. Very powerful sailing boat
networkyachtbrokers.com/boats_for_sale/Nauticat_42-22603.html/

at the top of your budget for an early one but not sure of prices at the moment because can't find any for sale. Several were sold in the UK so do come up from time to time.

Interesting, but still quite a low sail area to displacement ratio, suggests it's pretty ponderous. Much nicer hull shape than other Nauticats though.

 

[Sea Change]

To run as a business you need to put aside entirely personal preferences on boats, and think in terms of what the paying passengers will want and report on Trip Advisor.
The Vancouver is extremely small inside - more so than perhaps a modern 34 AWB.

Yes I guess you're right about the Vancouver. Shame they didn't make a bigger version of it.

Probably outside budget, but the sort of things passengers might want to come on - and importantly pay to come back on - might be more like a modern style Moody 45 DS - lots of windows to watch the views when weather a bit iffy, and lots of en-suite cabins.
Most paying passengers don’t like sharing smelly heads and showers.

Definitely outside the budget. But I think the pilot house or deck saloon idea is the right way to go.
You're likely right about the heads. Most designs will have two heads and two double cabins. I'm assuming four guests plus myself, so it should be doable.

 

[Sea Change]

What’s your aim of the charter offering?

Adventure sailing? If so I’d be going for big rufty toughty metal boat that ‘looks’ the job - and potentially also be suitable to branch out to Faroes / Iceland trips too.

Artists / yoga / story telling trips / retreats?- From those that I follow on instagram, anything looks suitable really - was chatting to a chap the other year doing this with a big-ish sigma; lots of single bunks for low costs for guests but high occupancy. All looked very convivial

“Luxury” trips for a couple or family? Then probably a prestige marque; swan / oyster/ new moody DS or converted MFV. Something they could ‘know’ and when they tell their pals, their pals also ‘know’

Best of luck with your venture!

Still very much early days. Probably 3-5yrs away from doing this, if it happens at all.
There's a bit of me that likes the idea of high latitude adventure, but being entirely honest with myself I don't think it's quite what I'm cut out for, even if there is a market there. And it would lend itself to longer trips, so that you could reach places like Iceland.

I'm working on the idea of week long trips based out of Skye, which gives some great cruising options including St Kilda. If weather prevents a return to base on time, SWMBO would bail us out by car, if we can reach the mainland. That should give a fair bit of flexibility. She'd also be providing the home cooked meals and handling the bookings and admin.

Perhaps the idea of a relatively gentle sail around the Northern Minch area isn't appealing enough to be viable. But I know the area well and I've worked on tourist boats here for a few years, so I know what kind of things people are interested in. I've got a pretty solid knowledge of local history, stories, and wildlife and not too blow my own trumpet too much, I think it's playing to some of my strengths.

At the end of the day, if the business falls completely flat, I'll own a really nice boat, and we'll just go bluewater cruising again

 

[Tranona]

Interesting, but still quite a low sail area to displacement ratio, suggests it's pretty ponderous. Much nicer hull shape than other Nauticats though.

If you are looking at Sailboatdata their figures are wrong. The basic single headsail rig area is just under 100sqm - not the 71.7 they used giving an SA/Displ of 15.7 and the 2 headsail rig is larger. A friend of mine had one for several years and never complained about lack of sailing performance. Best trip was non stop Hamble to the Clyde for the whisky distillery cruise! Factory brochure here nauticatassociation.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Nauticat-42-spec.pdf

There are many variations on the deck saloon or pilot house theme. The sit up and beg types like the Vancouver and Victoria are really just enclosed wheelhouses stuck onto cruising hulls and really lack space. On the other hand you could look at the Jeanneau DS range which have raised decks and big windows but not inside steering or similar (but better!) Bavaria Vision series such as Baggywrinkle is just buying. Accommodation is in a different league from the old style wheelhouse cruisers. Priced well within your budget and frequently for sale in the UK.

Others to look at are Southerly 135, Colvic Victor 40 (most are home finished and cheap but some were really good) scotland.boatshed.com/colvic_victor_40-boat-275247.html Callisto (steel) designed by Bill Dixon and built by Croft Marine wales.boatshed.com/callisto_385-boat-226514.html This one is a bit small but there were 42 and 44' versions. Don't dismiss Oysters - again raised saloon, but the older mid 40s have good accommodation and sailing performance. Or you could buy now and join the exclusive "geem" club with a slightly smaller version of his Trintella mcyachts.co.uk/boats-for-sale/victory-40/2508935

By their nature these styles of boats were never built in large numbers (except the Jeanneau and Bavaria). People love the idea - until they see the cost which even on a volume production hull adds 20-30% to the price. So when you start looking seriously you will find all sorts of designs, many quirky and custom. Scandinavian builders like Regina built quite a few but never sold in any numbers to the UK because of the high cost. Likewise many were built specifically for long distance cruising so end up in the Med or the Caribbean so not really practical to buy for UK use.

 

[Sea Change]

If you are looking at Sailboatdata their figures are wrong.

Mea culpa, I shouldn't take everything off that website at face value. Thanks for the correction.

you could look at the Jeanneau DS range which have raised decks and big windows but not inside steering or similar (but better!) Bavaria Vision series such as Baggywrinkle is just buying. Accommodation is in a different league from the old style wheelhouse cruisers. Priced well within your budget and frequently for sale in the UK.

I'll look up the Vision, I'm familiar with the Jeanneau because I sailed quite a few miles on a 42DS including my day skipper course. I can't say I was all that impressed with the Jeanneau, which is a shame because there are loads of them around. I'd obviously have to go a size up to provide the extra cabin that I need.

Others to look at are Southerly 135

Having owned a lift keel boat before, I'm not sure it's something I want again.

, Colvic Victor 40 (most are home finished and cheap but some were really good)

I've been aboard one, and they are pretty enormous inside. Not especially fancy, but can be picked up cheaply. Interesting option.

Callisto (steel) designed by Bill Dixon and built by Croft Marine wales.boatshed.com/callisto_385-boat-226514.html This one is a bit small but there were 42 and 44' versions.

Very interesting. I'd have to get over my aversion to steel.

Don't dismiss Oysters - again raised saloon, but the older mid 40s have good accommodation and sailing performance.

Oh I'm not! Oyster was my first thought. There's a couple of 435s for sale around £100-£125k.

Or you could buy now and join the exclusive "geem" club with a slightly smaller version of his Trintella mcyachts.co.uk/boats-for-sale/victory-40/2508935

My preference is for fin and skeg- I expect I'll be manoeuvring this single handed.
I've been aboard Geem's boat and it seemed far more spacious than that Victory. Something of that age would definitely be within budget though

By their nature these styles of boats were never built in large numbers (except the Jeanneau and Bavaria). People love the idea - until they see the cost which even on a volume production hull adds 20-30% to the price. So when you start looking seriously you will find all sorts of designs, many quirky and custom. Scandinavian builders like Regina built quite a few but never sold in any numbers to the UK because of the high cost. Likewise many were built specifically for long distance cruising so end up in the Med or the Caribbean so not really practical to buy for UK use.

I've got no problem with buying abroad and delivering back to the UK, but I presume that means I have to pay VAT? And would it be difficult to run the business without importing and re-flagging the boat?

 

[Tranona]

I've got no problem with buying abroad and delivering back to the UK, but I presume that means I have to pay VAT? And would it be difficult to run the business without importing and re-flagging the boat?

It is not really the VAT that is the problem although 25% is a big chunk and generally boats outside the UK are no cheaper than inside and often more expensive, but the uncertainty over whether the boat needs certification for use in the UK (not coding, but meeting the latest equivalent of the RCD). This has effectively killed the import of used boats and is part of the reason for the lack of choice in the UK. VAT has nothing to do with the flag so you can register any boat on the UK register.

When (or if) you return to the UK with your current boat you will be able to obtain Returned Goods Relief and not pay VAT. If you have become non resident you may also be able to claim Change of Residence relief for goods (including a boat) you bring with you. So you could sell your Moody and buy your next boat outside the UK, keep it for a year as a non resident and then bring it into the UK VAT and certification free. Becoming non resident is not a trivial matter though.

All this is complicated and best avoided which is why I suggested your choice may be very restricted, limited to boats already in the UK.

 

[Sea Change]

Thanks Tranona, is there not an age limit on the RCD compliance?

 

[E39mad]

Sadler Panorama 40 (if you can find one) - based on the Starlight 39 hull

Sovereign 40 (another British built boat in very low volume)

Belluire 40 to 45 (Spanish built) - might be bit heavy as are similar to the Ibold Endurance designs.

Franchini 45 (Italian built)

As already mentioned Wauquiez do a lot of lovely Pilot house boats from 40 feet upwards.

I wouldn't personally say the Vancouver 38 is small - it has three double cabins and two heads. More traditional perhaps but has the advantage of an encapsulated keel and cutter rig.

I was also going to suggest a Southerly 135 - they did two layouts: one with a raised saloon and one with a more open plan layout with the galley raised. Southerly keel arrangements are unlike no other lifting keel design. They are ballasted keels with a cast iron grounding plate. A great design if like exploring shallower waters.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I'll look up the Vision, I'm familiar with the Jeanneau because I sailed quite a few miles on a 42DS including my day skipper course. I can't say I was all that impressed with the Jeanneau, which is a shame because there are loads of them around. I'd obviously have to go a size up to provide the extra cabin that I need.

There's not much on the older Bavaria Visions online ... but the newer 42/46 can be found for the top end of your budget.

https://www.yachten-meltl.de/fileadmin/user_files/images/PDF/Brochure_Vision_42.pdf

I am in the process of buying a Vision 44 ...

https://bavariayacht.org/downloads/datasheet/Vision 40 44 50.pdf

Didn't realise you were quite so far North, I used to cruise from the Clyde up to Skye as a kid, but I'd agree that once out towards Uist etc. a bit more weather protection is in order to keep your guests happy. .... mind you, we used to do it in company, a Westely Centuar and an Albin Vega ... so any of these would be an improvement on that.

 

[E39mad]

Forgot to mention the Regina range of yachts - part of the Sweden Yachts group - lovely designs and Scandinavian built but maybe out of the price range.

There's also the Trident Voyager 40 - unusual in that it is twin screw!!