Petition: Change the laws and regulations on our waterways

[seaangler23]

My worry with these things is that it can get carried away, no doubt will be linked on Facebook and the amount of people that sign these things with little knowledge of the subject is crazy, lots of valid points in here and I’m probably fairly slack when it comes to a lot of them but use common sense, I do agree a minimum qualification one day as 99% of accidents on the water seem to come from a complete lack of understaning and easily avoidable with common sense and a bit of understanding

 

[NealB]

The RYA scheme may be very good but its is not required. I have read of several tragedies on these pages which may have been prevented if the operator had received some training.

What are the numbers? What is an acceptable number of Deaths? Injuries?
What proportion of incidents involve alcohol? Lack of Knowledge? Lack of Training?

Without being able to answer no one knows.

I recall that, maybe a couple of years ago, someone on here gave a link to a report that compared the incidence of leisure boating accidents of various types across numerous countries, including UK, US, France, Spain, Italy, Australia, Germany.

If I remember correctly, the UK came out very well in that report (ie a lower accident rate than many countries where training is compulsory).

Anyone else remember it?

 

[Tranona]

I was surprised by the earlier discussion of this case with suggestion English law lacked an ability to charge a pleasure boat skipper or operator with a "drink driving" offence.
Perhaps defining a specific limit would be both a significant and practical step. Take your pick on the limit English or Scottish.
This may be achieved if a boat operator is charged with a drink driving offence using one of the above acts and the current road limit. Or maybe no one has been charged because it would fail without a specific limit.

Common sense is not always common.

The RYA scheme may be very good but its is not required. I have read of several tragedies on these pages which may have been prevented if the operator had received some training.

What are the numbers? What is an acceptable number of Deaths? Injuries?
What proportion of incidents involve alcohol? Lack of Knowledge? Lack of Training?

Without being able to answer no one knows.

My gut feeling the problem is greater with the small fast power boat. I have read a number of incidents where alcohol, speed, knowledge and common sense have played a part. Admittedly many were not in the UK.

The law is there, but does not prescribe levels. The proposal is to make the offence (and the limits) the same as for the road and allow testing on suspicion with a penalty for being over the limit. It is this that was shown to be unworkable last time, first in defining who it covered and it what circumstances and second who should enforce it.

The figures on deaths and injuries are problematic as there are no "official" figures as there is no obligation to report accidents involving pleasure boats. The MAIB say 46 (involving alcohol) between 2005 and 2012. However this figure is the one that was quoted last time there was an attempt to implement the 2003 act and at that time they were unable to provide any substantiation for the claim. On the other hand if you look on their website which has the majority of their reports you will only find 4 incidents resulting in 5 deaths, 3 in one incident, in the period from approx 2000 to present day and none since 2011. Of course they do not investigate every incident - that is the job of the local coroner. All of the reported incidents involved small high speed craft and the two worst happened at night.

You are right about the type of boats involved as in Australia and the US where they do have good statistics virtually all the incidents, both of deaths and injuries and involving alcohol involve small high speed craft. In Australia both a licence is required and there are specified limits of alcohol. Clearly does not act as a deterrent for some. Similar in the US although it varies from state to state.

I would be useful if somebody did research the subject properly, although I suspect there is little enthusiasm for the authorities to do that as lack of hard information "helps" their case.

 

[jac]

I was surprised by the earlier discussion of this case with suggestion English law lacked an ability to charge a pleasure boat skipper or operator with a "drink driving" offence.
Perhaps defining a specific limit would be both a significant and practical step. Take your pick on the limit English or Scottish.
This may be achieved if a boat operator is charged with a drink driving offence using one of the above acts and the current road limit. Or maybe no one has been charged because it would fail without a specific limit.

Common sense is not always common.

The problem is to define what is a suitable level of blood alcohol and how to work it in practice.

What may be a limit commensurate with risk appetite that is suitable for a fast moving car amongst pedestrians maybe too low a limit for a slow moving sailing dinghy on a lake. The car - the bad judgement and poor reactions will result in death to bystanders, with the dinghy - maybe just the participants.

SO do you apply it only to powered craft - does that then persuade someone with an outboard to not use it, try and row out to their yacht and get swept away by the tide?

SO craft with only a certain size engine? 9.9hp limit has been applied in other cases? A Sib / small rib will plane with 5hp one up. With a 9.8 2t even 2 or 3 up it will really shift - creating the same situation as this - a collision with a floating object followed by immersion in cold water.


Maybe apply it to boats that go above a certain speed but what about the boat supplied with a small engine and then souped up? Which limit do you use. What if it can manage above the speed limit one up but not 2?


Ultimately - this girl died because 2 drunk people were stupid. Drunk people die every week but are not met by a barrage of new laws that would have no effect.

 

[benchmark]

- Speed limits (already exist here in Denmark and boldly written in all marinas , canals or other smal lwaterways or protected estuaries. On the open ocean there is no sign so no limit and does not need one! )
- Alcohol drink drive limits ( already exists here, same rules apply as to automobiles )
- Mandatory wearing of life jackets ( already exists and minors and pets are mandatory, adults do not have to wear them but the vessel MUST have adequate amount for everyone on board)
- Safety training (already exists, you take it as part of your boating certificate which is mandatory for any vessel that can plane, )
- Vessel safety standards ( already exists , though indirectly as all vessels manufactured after a certain date MUST be CE certified)

no problem here, move along now

 

[moomba]

+1 to Tranoma's response
to the catty re markers , remember some one did die , may not have been your wife , girlfriend, daughter but was someones, maybe a little compasion
and as a democracy we can sign or not sign petitions with good valid sound reasoning as we see fit
anyone consuming alcohol while in charge of a moving vessel should really need their head sorted out , or are we lead to believe that those on water have better reaction times and judgement to those on a road
common sense does prevail alas up here in the wilderness it is mainly the speedboat and jet skiers on Loch Lomond who are generally young and male with drink in them that get into the worst accidents , same as roads I believe as well

 

[Blue Sunray]

+1 to Tranoma's response
to the catty re markers , remember some one did die , may not have been your wife , girlfriend, daughter but was someones, maybe a little compasion
and as a democracy we can sign or not sign petitions with good valid sound reasoning as we see fit
anyone consuming alcohol while in charge of a moving vessel should really need their head sorted out , or are we lead to believe that those on water have better reaction times and judgement to those on a road
common sense does prevail alas up here in the wilderness it is mainly the speedboat and jet skiers on Loch Lomond who are generally young and male with drink in them that get into the worst accidents , same as roads I believe as well

Does that come in an English version? (Miaow)

 

[Corribee72]

The incident referred to was tragic in the extreme, the bloke an out and out scoundrel and all sympathies go to the family of the young woman who lost her life.
The problem with legislation is that it's only as effective as the enforcement and the suggested rules/laws could not be practically enforced and we would still be in a situation when infringements only become apparent after an incident. Tough penalties for those whose drunk and reckless behaviour endangers, harms or kills would be welcomed by me and I think this area is enforceable on a case by case basis. Being a kayaker and swimmer I have seen many fast boats and jet skis acting outright stupidly within 20 meters of a swimming beach, on one occasion the QHM did actually make an appearance and the skis were quickly put in line. To effectively keep the waters safer, a higher profile presence would be more effective than new legislation but there's the rub, enforcement agencies are having their funding cut, not increased. All we can do is act responsibly and effect others by our example and if someone does anything uber stupid, hope the current legislation is up to the job.

 

[Scotsailor]

I’m inclined to agree with the petition. It can’t be right to be able to just buy a speedboat and do as you like … and drink limits should be in line with drive limits in my opinion

 

[CLB]

I’m inclined to agree with the petition. It can’t be right to be able to just buy a speedboat and do as you like … and drink limits should be in line with drive limits in my opinion

You can't do what you like. There are already speed limits and bylaws in place.

 

[Graham376]

You can't do what you like. There are already speed limits and bylaws in place.

Yes there are in many cases but no speed limit outside harbour/river limits. I couldn't care less if some idiot gets well drunk and kills himself but sadly, they often take others with them.

Most, if not all the points in the petition are covered here but, watching many at play, you wouldn't know it.

 

[CLB]

Yes there are in many cases but no speed limit outside harbour/river limits. I couldn't care less if some idiot gets well drunk and kills himself but sadly, they often take others with them.

Most, if not all the points in the petition are covered here but, watching many at play, you wouldn't know it.

Are you seriously suggesting speed limits out in open water?

 

[Graham376]

Are you seriously suggesting speed limits out in open water?

Certainly not. What I'm saying is that I'm based in a country which has lots of regulation but it has no effect whatsoever and I see far more bad driving of power boats, that I ever did in the UK.

 

[Dutch01527]

Tragic case and you have to feel for the family but the prosecution and conviction shows that the law already has plenty of teeth.

One of the real attractions of sailing to me is the lack of regulation. I like the freedom of being able to get on my boat and sail to America tomorrow if I wanted to and be responsible for my own safety. Arguably that creates a more self reliant, safety conscious breed of sailors. Regulations would be ignored by rare idiots such as one in this case and would impact the enjoyment of 1000’s of responsible sailors. Sailing, climbing, canoeing and similar pursuits are the last bastions of escape from nanny state regulations and enhance the lives of people who undertake such pursuits.

I think the same about compulsory training, the only time I have been seriously aground is with a newly qualified Coastal Skipper who had an over inflated view of his competence based on passing the qualification in a accelerated programme in the Mediterranean.

 

[steve yates]

A colleague of mine has started this petition following the death of a family member. It would be great if people could sign and share this so it can be raised in parliament.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/226218

Not a chance sorry. I haven't read the rest, this is just my gut reaction. I'm sure there is a tragic backstory, but not one that could make me change my mind to agree with all of these together. Sorry.

 

[shan]

Does that come in an English version? (Miaow)

Do you come with a non-nobhead setting? (Miaow)

 

[Blue Sunray]

Do you come with a non-nobhead setting? (Miaow)

Weak, try harder.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

My worry with these things is that it can get carried away, no doubt will be linked on Facebook and the amount of people that sign these things with little knowledge of the subject is crazy, lots of valid points in here and I’m probably fairly slack when it comes to a lot of them but use common sense, I do agree a minimum qualification one day as 99% of accidents on the water seem to come from a complete lack of understaning and easily avoidable with common sense and a bit of understanding

I think that is part of the problem. In today's highly regulated society . If one takes to a pastime and there are no requirements , the mindset may well suggest that there is nothing to worry about. One country does I think require a license for craft that can do 10 knots and above. There is no requirement for sailing boats. It is assumed that you know what you are doing and are aware of the likely hazards.

 

[Robert Wilson]

Apart from the usual catty remarks this thread shows a remarkable and unusual level of agreement for these fora.

+1
And I add my own comment that, as someone posted earlier, we have freedom on the waters and long may it last.
I for one hope I am safety conscious all the time, especially when I have guests aboard.
Yes I take the odd risk, e.g. not wearing a life jacket when the weather/sea is calm, climb the mast by myself etc. etc., but it is my choice.
And I never drink alcohol until back on the mooring/at anchor. Yes, I know, I then may have to go on deck, row ashore, walk along a pontoon and even cross a main road!

We have responsibilities to ourselves and others - please don't bring in more rules/laws, which will have to be "policed" with the inevitable cost element and paperwork compliance.

I hope this is not seen as a selfish rebuttal of the petition, I just don't agree with the proposals.

 

[Robert Wilson]

My worry with these things is that it can get carried away, no doubt will be linked on Facebook and the amount of people that sign these things with little knowledge of the subject is crazy, lots of valid points in here and I’m probably fairly slack when it comes to a lot of them but use common sense, I do agree a minimum qualification one day as 99% of accidents on the water seem to come from a complete lack of understaning and easily avoidable with common sense and a bit of understanding

I'm sure I am like tens of thousands of others who enjoy spending time on the water in pleasure craft, in that I took a few sailing lessons over sixty years ago and since then have gained quite a lot of experience afloat and ashore. (viz. STA Schooners, crewing jobs, own boat(s), solo circumnavigation of the British Isles).

I fervently hope that "minimum qualifications" do not become mandatory - but common sense says boating can be dangerous to self and others - like walking in the countryside, crossing a busy town road, swimming in the sea.

There are enough Nanny-state laws and regulations. PLEASE, don't legislate for our water-borne pleasures.