Petition: Change the laws and regulations on our waterways

[Tranona]

The OP (that’s me) does indeed own a moderately sized boat on an Essex River, excellent research.
Impact on me if these recommendations came into force (which would be highly unlikely) would be wearing a life jacket at all times, and ensuring my vessel meets any safety standard required.

But you will see from my original post I did not create this petition. I suspect the person who did has very little understanding of pleasure craft. In fact I also disagree with some of the creators proposals, but I am most certainly open to suggestions that will improve the experience of boating both in terms of safety and enjoyment for everyone.

The infrastructure is already in place. It is already illegal to be under the influence of alcohol while in command of a boat either through byelaws in ports and harbours, the MSA or the Railways and Transport Act 2003. Prosecutions can be brought under any of these acts. What is not currently stated in these statutes is a specific maximum alcohol level that may result in penalties.

There is a well structured training and development scheme appropriate to all classes of boats run by the RYA on behalf of the MCA.

The RNLI offer a free safety inspection for anybody who asks.

All this plus "common sense" means that the safety record of pleasure boating in the UK is arguably the best in the world. The number of deaths, or injuries is so small that it is difficult to measure, and most are confined to one small subset of boat users and types of boat such as the one in this latest incident.

There are three tests of whether a law is "good". First does it address an issue and second does it work as a deterrent and lastly does it provide suitable punishment for offenders

The proposals in the petition fail the first two and the law already allows suitable punishment. This case illustrates this perfectly. The behaviour of the offender in his boat provided sufficient evidence for a conviction for manslaughter which is a far more serious offence than any of the individual transgressions.

BTW all these issues have been raised in parliament at some time or other and the conclusion of discussions has always been the same - there is not a problem that needs legislation, or it would be impractical to implement and enforce. this one case, bad though it was does not change that.

 

[pvb]

But you will see from my original post I did not create this petition. I suspect the person who did has very little understanding of pleasure craft. In fact I also disagree with some of the creators proposals, but I am most certainly open to suggestions that will improve the experience of boating both in terms of safety and enjoyment for everyone.

It's hard to accept that comment when your original post said "It would be great if people could sign and share this so it can be raised in parliament." Changed your mind when you realised the futility of it?

 

[LittleSister]

And a no from me, for the reasons others have already stated.

 

[jala150]

As I said it’s not my petition. If people choose not to sign it then that’s really of no issue to me. Thank you to the guys who responded with some useful detail rather than just a pointless “no I won’t”. It’s great when these forums are used to share knowledge.

It's hard to accept that comment when your original post said "It would be great if people could sign and share this so it can be raised in parliament." Changed your mind when you realised the futility of it?

I’m sorry you find it hard to accept, on reviewing my original post it could have been worded better, it was quickly posted whilst I had 2 minutes at work. I will try harder, perhaps I can send you a draft of all future postings for review before I post so you don’t have these awful “hard to accept” moments again?!

 

[Blue Sunray]

And a no from me, for the reasons others have already stated.

Me neither. As said above relevant laws and regulations are already in place, adding new ones would be just a platitudinous waste of time and effort.

 

[Blue Sunray]

I’m sorry you find it hard to accept, on reviewing my original post it could have been worded better, it was quickly posted whilst I had 2 minutes at work. I will try harder, perhaps I can send you a draft of all future postings for review before I post so you don’t have these awful “hard to accept” moments again?!

Perhaps you could just read them through yourself? People can only respond to what you post, not what you think in retrospect that you should have. Oh and perhaps check at the same time that you are posting in the most appropriate forum as well - this one is for 'Sharing practical, hands-on information.'

 

[jala150]

Perhaps you could just read them through yourself? People can only respond to what you post, not what you think in retrospect that you should have.

Perhaps I could again I apologise, I must try harder.

But thank you people for bumping this thread to the top. If no on had responded it would quickly disappear into obscurity. But as with all forums people have to take great offence and keep these threads going.

 

[shan]

The infrastructure is already in place. It is already illegal to be under the influence of alcohol while in command of a boat either through byelaws in ports and harbours, the MSA or the Railways and Transport Act 2003. Prosecutions can be brought under any of these acts. What is not currently stated in these statutes is a specific maximum alcohol level that may result in penalties.

There is a well structured training and development scheme appropriate to all classes of boats run by the RYA on behalf of the MCA.

The RNLI offer a free safety inspection for anybody who asks.

All this plus "common sense" means that the safety record of pleasure boating in the UK is arguably the best in the world. The number of deaths, or injuries is so small that it is difficult to measure, and most are confined to one small subset of boat users and types of boat such as the one in this latest incident.

There are three tests of whether a law is "good". First does it address an issue and second does it work as a deterrent and lastly does it provide suitable punishment for offenders

The proposals in the petition fail the first two and the law already allows suitable punishment. This case illustrates this perfectly. The behaviour of the offender in his boat provided sufficient evidence for a conviction for manslaughter which is a far more serious offence than any of the individual transgressions.

BTW all these issues have been raised in parliament at some time or other and the conclusion of discussions has always been the same - there is not a problem that needs legislation, or it would be impractical to implement and enforce. this one case, bad though it was does not change that.

Well thought out post.

 

[jala150]

Well thought out post.

+1 very helpful post thank you

 

[shan]

Perhaps I could again I apologise, I must try harder.

But thank you people for bumping this thread to the top. If no on had responded it would quickly disappear into obscurity. But as with all forums people have to take great offence and keep these threads going.

Pay no heed. I think too many people with too much time on their hands spend too much time on forums and forget how to interact with people because they spend too much time hidden behind a screen. Idle hands and all that...

Tranona formulated a well reasoned reply, which I agree with and for those reasons I think a change is unnecessary. I absolutely see why the family have started the petition. I imagine they feel pretty helpless and want to do whatever they can to stop this happening in the future. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to happen often in the UK. Even though the petition is unlikely to succeed, it is still a good thing because it does make people stop and think and re-evaluate the way they behave on boats.... or perhaps even think... wooops, I really should get that fire extinguisher retested or replaced or whatever needs doing.

 

[Seajet]

jala,

no great offence, just sensible feedback which I hope has been taken aboard.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Apart from the usual catty remarks this thread shows a remarkable and unusual level of agreement for these fora.

 

[Cactus Sailing]

I certainly wouldn't ever sign that petition; boating is one of the last freedoms in our society and it should remain so. We individually take responsibility for our own, and our friends', safety. Draconian rules wouldn't have prevented the 2015 death on the Thames, drunken people tend to take little notice of rules.

+1

on reading the article, its tragic yes but would i get into a friends car who i had been drinking with and then "have a go at driving twice the speed limit having never driven before"?

From the BBC;
"In mobile phone footage filmed during the date, Ms Brown could be heard shouting that they were going "so fast" as Shepherd drove at more than double the 12 knot speed limit.
On the return journey, After drinking two bottles of wine and various other alcoholic drinks Shepherd handed over the controls to Ms Brown who followed suit and went "full throttle".
The speeding boat hit a submerged log and tipped over, sending both of them into the Thames."

unfortunate as this tragedy is, the government / law and regulations are not to blame.

 

[PeteCooper]

I am not signing the petition as it doesn't go far enough.
All boats should have wheels on the bottom of the keel(s), an inflatable fender all round the boat and a continuous line which can never be untied from the mooring.

 

[RichardS]

Isn't it sad that people want to rely on the "nanny state" to make the laws which ought to be common-sense?

As the most strident champion on The Lounge for getting rid of most of the annual MOT requirements and removing the speed limits on motorway, signing the petition would clearly not accord with my philosophical anti-Nanny-State orientation.

Richard

 

[NealB]

Sorry, another "no".

I think the 'proposals':

- are obviously well intentioned, but naive

- will have zero impact on this country's generally excellent record of accidents related to leisure boating

- will be impossible to enforce

- would not have stopped the behaviour of the totally irresponsible idiot who caused the particular incident

 

[jac]

Even though the petition is unlikely to succeed, it is still a good thing because it does make people stop and think and re-evaluate the way they behave on boats.... or perhaps even think... wooops, I really should get that fire extinguisher retested or replaced or whatever needs doing.

Sadly whilst it may make some of us pause for a minute and reflect I suspect that it will have no impact on the type of lout that spends a few hundred on an ebay speedboat with the sole intention of getting drunk and pulling "birds."

The tragedy seemed really to be caused by someone with no experience owning and then driving a fast boat whilst drunk . If the petition has been something to do with tighter controls on planing motorboats then I could have seen some benefit - not this ill thought out but no doubt well intentioned campaign that seems to just take a scattergun approach to "fix" issues that really aren't issues.

 

[Concerto]

This is a badly thought out proposal and I certainly would never consider more regulations.

It has been a typical response to a tragic accident from someone with little real knowledge about how the vast majority of boat owners use their boats. Surprisingly no one has mentioned this thread in the East Coast Forum. http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?505513-Man-dies-after-hitting-moored-boat-at-St-Lawrence Since I left my post, there have been over 400 more views but no further comments.

If people want to ignore all of the normal safety provisions for boats, ignore speed limits and drink to excess, will any change in the law make a difference? No, it will not. The vast majority of the problems come from smaller powered craft, not sailing boats. Too many people seem to think driving a small fast boat is fun and is like a car (without brakes). It certainly is not like that. I would support some law to ensure small fast powered craft were registered, so they can be identified when breaking existing harbour rules, etc.

However, it may become the thin edge of the wedge that could ruin our sport. The EU has introduced classifications for how particular boats should be used, so a boat intended for lake sailing should not be used to cross an ocean. Only an idiot would consider doing that any way. What could be next? What about registration of boats (for a fee) with annual safety checks (for a fee)? Petrol and gas are both explosive, so maybe they should not be carried on boats. No purchase of a boat without the relevant RYA qualification for that class. Every journey should be planned and logged on a register, stopping going out for a day's sail and return to your berth. Minimum crew on board of 2, so if there is a man overboard, then the other can contact rescue services. That would kill singlehanded sailing immediately. Currently all of these "risks" are sensibly managed through common sense, with guidance from insurance companies.

Lets keep our sport as it is, free for all to enjoy without endless bureaucracy to comply with.

 

[lw395]

This is just bizarre, ill thought-out knee jerk nonsense.
It might have the perverse effect of downgrading the bloke's crime from manslaughter to a sort of traffic offence.

 

[Uricanejack]

The infrastructure is already in place. It is already illegal to be under the influence of alcohol while in command of a boat either through byelaws in ports and harbours, the MSA or the Railways and Transport Act 2003. Prosecutions can be brought under any of these acts. What is not currently stated in these statutes is a specific maximum alcohol level that may result in penalties.

There is a well structured training and development scheme appropriate to all classes of boats run by the RYA on behalf of the MCA.

The RNLI offer a free safety inspection for anybody who asks.

All this plus "common sense" means that the safety record of pleasure boating in the UK is arguably the best in the world. The number of deaths, or injuries is so small that it is difficult to measure, and most are confined to one small subset of boat users and types of boat such as the one in this latest incident.

There are three tests of whether a law is "good". First does it address an issue and second does it work as a deterrent and lastly does it provide suitable punishment for offenders

The proposals in the petition fail the first two and the law already allows suitable punishment. This case illustrates this perfectly. The behaviour of the offender in his boat provided sufficient evidence for a conviction for manslaughter which is a far more serious offence than any of the individual transgressions.

BTW all these issues have been raised in parliament at some time or other and the conclusion of discussions has always been the same - there is not a problem that needs legislation, or it would be impractical to implement and enforce. this one case, bad though it was does not change that.

I was surprised by the earlier discussion of this case with suggestion English law lacked an ability to charge a pleasure boat skipper or operator with a "drink driving" offence.
Perhaps defining a specific limit would be both a significant and practical step. Take your pick on the limit English or Scottish.
This may be achieved if a boat operator is charged with a drink driving offence using one of the above acts and the current road limit. Or maybe no one has been charged because it would fail without a specific limit.

Common sense is not always common.

The RYA scheme may be very good but its is not required. I have read of several tragedies on these pages which may have been prevented if the operator had received some training.

What are the numbers? What is an acceptable number of Deaths? Injuries?
What proportion of incidents involve alcohol? Lack of Knowledge? Lack of Training?

Without being able to answer no one knows.

My gut feeling the problem is greater with the small fast power boat. I have read a number of incidents where alcohol, speed, knowledge and common sense have played a part. Admittedly many were not in the UK.