Penta Kamd300 EDC Problem Help!

[Petbeemer]

Firstly as i'm a noob i'l say hello to everyone!
Having searched the internet as much as possible it brought me to this site which seems to be putting me on the correct path.
My problem is......
I Have a Carver 3557 with twin Kamd300 retrofitted some years ago, its a great boat which i live aboard but recently has developed a fault on the port engine, the engines are fitted with EDC which im trying to get my head around what it does exactly, especially on my boat!
The symptoms are that you can start both engines quite easily but after a prolonged period the port engine will start to surge and run badly to the point where it cuts out, you can instantly start it yet again and it can/will run for an undetermined amount of time before repeating the process, last weekend both engines both ran fine all weekend while out cruising but as soon as i came back to the marina the port engine died, and has run as described ever since?
As far as i can see so far the EDC controls the engine ECU only, has no neutral switch fitted, so is literally just a fly by wire system!
Anyone shed any light on to my problem?

 

[oldgit]

Not completely the same but..
Chum of mine had similar agro with engines on a Phantom 46. No obvious rhyme or reason, one engine would fail,either stop or go into limp mode whenever it felt like it, usually in the middle of nowhere.
The temp cure involved shutting everthing down, going downstairs, restarting and continuing the trip.
Tried everthing suggested by every passing soul.
Started with usual filter changes, progressed to removing,substituting various electrical connectors and hard wiring, new fuel pumps and then continued with cutting inspection holes in fuel tanks, blitzing tanks and fuel lines.ECU checked and double checked.
Problem still there.
It was cured in the end.

On way back from Burham on Crouch a weekend or two ago, with small flottila of a dozen boats, one of them broke down and lost an engine.The boat, a Sealine F47 had similar problem as P46 and used similar get you home fix.
You might want to concentrate on the electronics over all else.

 

[kashurst]

that sounds like blocked fuel filters. when were all the fuel filters changed?
are there any fault codes showing?
if you need a copy of the manuals send me a pm with an email address.

 

[TK Blue MAX]

Blocked tank breather?????

 

[Petbeemer]

Blocked tank breather?????

Wouldn't run all weekend if it was something simple, a blockage is a blockage and will limit fuel entering the engine all of the time.

I have learnt something though, after disassembling the EDC it can actually be removed/unplugged while the engine is running, so im guessing the controller is merely a device for fault codes and system check before allowing the ignition to actually start the engines

 

[Petbeemer]

Not completely the same but..
Chum of mine had similar agro with engines on a Phantom 46. No obvious rhyme or reason, one engine would fail,either stop or go into limp mode whenever it felt like it, usually in the middle of nowhere.
The temp cure involved shutting everthing down, going downstairs, restarting and continuing the trip.
Tried everthing suggested by every passing soul.
Started with usual filter changes, progressed to removing,substituting various electrical connectors and hard wiring, new fuel pumps and then continued with cutting inspection holes in fuel tanks, blitzing tanks and fuel lines.ECU checked and double checked.
Problem still there.
It was cured in the end.

On way back from Burham on Crouch a weekend or two ago, with small flottila of a dozen boats, one of them broke down and lost an engine.The boat, a Sealine F47 had similar problem as P46 and used similar get you home fix.
You might want to concentrate on the electronics over all else.

I am thinking this myself, the good (maybe good) thing about the EDC is all the connections are the same, so you can swap various parts from a working side!

 

[kashurst]

Wouldn't run all weekend if it was something simple, a blockage is a blockage and will limit fuel entering the engine all of the time."

that's not strictly true - depends on what's blocking the filters etc. Don't discount or assume anything a this stage.

"I have learnt something though, after disassembling the EDC it can actually be removed/unplugged while the engine is running, so im guessing the controller is merely a device for fault codes and system check before allowing the ignition to actually start the engines

DO NOT disconnect any part of the engine electronics or electric whilst it is running - you could do untold damage. The EDC modules are about £2,500 each! There is a number of sensors on the engine monitoring boat pressure various temperatures etc. Its pretty smart. If the EDC detects a problem it will show on the fault codes. If no fault codes showing then its either an electrical issue (bad connection), throttle potentiometer or a fuel supply issue that the EDC doesn't monitor and will try and compensate for (surging and hunting etc)

 

[TK Blue MAX]

Wouldn't run all weekend if it was something simple, a blockage is a blockage and will limit fuel entering the engine all of the time.

Partially blocked breather will create a vacuum that will gradually reduce fuel flow. Best to eliminate problem's that dont cost anything first, second the advice not to unplug any thing on edc while running.

 

[Petbeemer]

DO NOT disconnect any part of the engine electronics or electric whilst it is running - you could do untold damage. The EDC modules are about £2,500 each! There is a number of sensors on the engine monitoring boat pressure various temperatures etc. Its pretty smart. If the EDC detects a problem it will show on the fault codes. If no fault codes showing then its either an electrical issue (bad connection), throttle potentiometer or a fuel supply issue that the EDC doesn't monitor and will try and compensate for (surging and hunting etc)

I agree in that it must be something that EDC does not monitor, but surely even a wiring fault would cause a code? ive unplugged it all and swapped everything around and both engines ran sweet yesterday for an hour or so.
So what on the engine does EDC monitor as mine seems fairy basic and just seems to be fly by wire throttles.
Again yes i assumed the ECU were trying to compensate

 

[gery w]

I know this boat quite well, how long have you owned her?

 

[Petbeemer]

I know this boat quite well, how long have you owned her?

Gery, really?? About 8 months

 

[jrudge]

These systems will only report what they can report.

Even then they report the symptom, not the cause.

If it runs OK and then faults after a time start with the suggestion of others - breathers, filters etc. When the flow stops the vacuum can be released or the blockage can temporarily fall away.

You might be able to test this pretty simply depending on how complex or otherwise your fuel management cocks are - as often you can force both engines to feed from one tank.

The other thing that happens with time is heat - and heat soaking something can then cause a failure that again will reset.

Another possibility is air getting into the fuel - either prompted by a blockage causing it to "suck" or heat expanding a fuel union.

Sensors may not show up. My Williams last summer had a poor connection on the lambda sensor. No error light, but it caused it to cut and surge - which I assumed was fuel and took it all to bits.

If you look in your manual and read the fault codes that will tell you what it monitors.

Try the obvious first, but sometimes these are frustrating and take time to fix.

 

[Petbeemer]

These systems will only report what they can report.

Even then they report the symptom, not the cause.

If it runs OK and then faults after a time start with the suggestion of others - breathers, filters etc. When the flow stops the vacuum can be released or the blockage can temporarily fall away.

You might be able to test this pretty simply depending on how complex or otherwise your fuel management cocks are - as often you can force both engines to feed from one tank.

The other thing that happens with time is heat - and heat soaking something can then cause a failure that again will reset.

Another possibility is air getting into the fuel - either prompted by a blockage causing it to "suck" or heat expanding a fuel union.

Sensors may not show up. My Williams last summer had a poor connection on the lambda sensor. No error light, but it caused it to cut and surge - which I assumed was fuel and took it all to bits.

If you look in your manual and read the fault codes that will tell you what it monitors.

Try the obvious first, but sometimes these are frustrating and take time to fix.

Well thanks to Kevin i have the manuals and im reading through them now! Its a very basic system by the looks and literally controls fuel from the top of the filter head to the actual pump, with a few sensors like rpm, air temp etc to monitor the engine is actually running!
The only codes i have on both engines is 5.4 which is a short to reverse gear, but as mine doesn't operate the gears or have any sensors on that side, plus they have always been there as far as im aware, i can't see it being that?

 

[jrudge]

It went ( I think) EDC , then EVC A/B/C . I have EVC A and yes it is basic - I don't know what the current generation even is - but EDC is form the 1990s I believe so you can't expect much.

It allowed fly by wire throttles, gear control, helm swapping etc which to most was pretty revolutionary compared to cables.

Remember the more it does in a boat can actually be a curse - sensors sensors sensors - how reliable things would be without them!

 

[Petbeemer]

It went ( I think) EDC , then EVC A/B/C . I have EVC A and yes it is basic - I don't know what the current generation even is - but EDC is form the 1990s I believe so you can't expect much.

It allowed fly by wire throttles, gear control, helm swapping etc which to most was pretty revolutionary compared to cables.

Remember the more it does in a boat can actually be a curse - sensors sensors sensors - how reliable things would be without them!

Id actually prefer to junk the lot and have cables!

 

[volvopaul]

Ohh some great answers here .
My hunch would be a faulty stop solenoid , for some reason only the KAD 300 does this , weak spring inside solenoid allowing plunger to move .

Pump designed to run if EDC wiring fails , pump is only a VE with electric governor .

 

[Petbeemer]

Ohh some great answers here .
My hunch would be a faulty stop solenoid , for some reason only the KAD 300 does this , weak spring inside solenoid allowing plunger to move .

Pump designed to run if EDC wiring fails , pump is only a VE with electric governor .

I was waiting for you to chime in

 

[kashurst]

Ssssh,you will give the game away, I will have to buy him more beer now.

 

[Petbeemer]

Ohh some great answers here .
My hunch would be a faulty stop solenoid , for some reason only the KAD 300 does this , weak spring inside solenoid allowing plunger to move .

Pump designed to run if EDC wiring fails , pump is only a VE with electric governor .

In that case VP is it not possible to convert back to manual throttle?
The pump basically works off timing gear and increases with speed etc, so the ecu is literally only controlling flow?

 

[volvopaul]

In that case VP is it not possible to convert back to manual throttle?
The pump basically works off timing gear and increases with speed etc, so the ecu is literally only controlling flow?