PBO #561: Diver down flag

Below are a few pics of the dive boat I have been on most recently. Location was SoF. On board were peeps from Belgium, Italy, England and Scotland. All believed the A flag was the one to use. The pics show 1) what is probably the most famous dive boat on the YBW forum, ( Note. Forum flag on bow above anchor ball ) 2) evidence from the pile of kit on the bathing platform that there were divers on board and 3)use of the A flag when diving was in progress. The last pic 4) is there just to show you what rough conditions the crew had to endure. And no, the forumite on the boat storage deck in the last pic is not having a pi** off the stern! :eek::D:D

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Personally, I have seen the red flag used, but that was in the Carribean.
 
nigelmercier said:
I learned to dive in the UK, with PADI; this is the route that the majority of divers worldwide will use. During training we are shown the red and white flag, and it is displayed on all the dive boats. If you modify the search in my Google image link above by adding "UK" you will still see that the A flag is still in the minority.

The A flag may be a requirement, but it will not be as prominent or as visible as the red and white one. The point of my original post is that boaters need to be aware of this flag.
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I learned with BSAC in UK, always used Alpha. If I'm diving off the boat I fly Alpha and, if diving with local Padi group also Alpha, that's the flag the Policia Maritima insists on.
 
Some pretty dim polarized opinions on this thread!

For my twopenith worth, I've seen both the red/white and A flown all around the Europe,Med and the Canaries. On the other side of the pond its the red/white you'll see 90% of the time. In the UK you'll see A 99% of the time, but you may also see the red/white.

I think the point being made, and it is very important point! Is not whether it is a Yank thing or Brit thing, but to be aware that there is another flag out there (legal or not!), and it very widely used and seen just about everywhere in the world except Northern Europe.

C'mon people, have respect for both as they mean the same thing and you should be aware of it. If you ran down a diver, I don't think you could tell a judge "well I didn't know what the flag meant so I ignored it"; ignorance is not an excuse! We fly both when we dive as then everybody knows what is going on, the same as we carry a surface marker (bought in Almerima, Spain) which only came with the red/white marker.

Rather than slag each other off as to what is right or wrong - learn what is out there and accept that it may not be correct, but is correct enough to recognised as a dive flag and is flown as one by many thousands of divers around the globe. Quite often with A, but not all the time. Look at it if you've never seen it, and maybe you could save a life.

And that is more important than a Yank/Brit thing, isn't it?
 
I learnt to dive with the US forces in Turkey under the PADI system and was taught that the A flag was for commercial/military diving operations whilst the red/white flag was to be used for recreational diving. When I returned to UK I continued my training with BSAC who teach that the A flag is the only one to use, whatever purpose the diving is being done for. Frankly, it matters not a jot which flag you use, so long as you fly the most easily recognised one for the area you're diving in. Therefore, for most places in Europe I'd fly the A flag but if I were in the Americas I'd probably fly the red and white one. That said, most folks don't take a blind bit of notice whatever flag you fly. As the cox of dive boats I've had to interpose myself between divers surfacing and passing boats of one breed and another more times than I care to remember and that's despite flying a very oversized A flag....
 
Ariadne said:
. If you ran down a diver, I don't think you could tell a judge "well I didn't know what the flag meant so I ignored it"; ignorance is not an excuse!
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I doubt that. A flag that has no meaning in law...it's not even a code flag...and would not be recognized in a court of law. As far as a court would be concerned that flag has no more meaning than a pair of old socks hanging off the stern.

I think the point is that many people do not know what the red/white flags is supposed to indicate. A diver who is wanting to protect himself (and that's what the flag is designed to do) would be well advised to use the proper flag. If he uses the wrong flag and gets run down a court will be more likely to tell him that he is at fault than to tell the other boater that "ignorance is no defence".

Nobody wants to run divers down, but boaters should be able to rely on divers to use the correct safety sytems. Until a couple of hours ago I had no idea that a divers even used another flag.


BTW I don't think anyone has been slagging people off
 
I was an SSAC (Scottish Sub Aqua Club) instructor more than twenty years ago. PADI was the new kid on the block at the time, and the red flag was seen occasionally on our travels. We were all aware of who the flag was likely to belong to, and also what it represented. We taught the correct use of the A flag, but also noted that the red duster might also be seen locally and was also pre-eminent in the U.S. of A. and their colonies ... same rules apply about slowing down, keeping a lookout, and keeping clear.

Similarly, the boats providing cover for divers have a responsibility to keep other craft away and not rely on a flag to do it for them.
 
Ariadne said:
Some pretty dim polarized opinions on this thread!
[...]
Rather than slag each other off as to what is right or wrong
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I don't think anyone has slagged anyone off. Many of us were sharing our personal observations which contradict Nigel's statement that the US diver down flag was almost exclusively used in place of the alpha flag (in the cruising grounds we are familiar with which for most of us excludes the US). A discussion of US state, federal, and international legal requirements is entirely appropriate in that context: Nobody is suggesting ignoring an unofficial flag that they know the meaning of and as RiggerMortice said, raising awareness of this flag (as has been done by Nigel's post) is a good thing. It has also caused some of us to search for and find *that* video of Van Halen's cover of pretty woman on youtube which again, is a good thing.
 
As said in Oz A flag is universally used. Even though PADI is the common SCUBA course. I have never heard of this red thing but will store it away in the memory bank.
I am always intrigued as to why SCUBA divers must be protected by a flag. Swimmers and snorkellers are at far more danger but have no protection. Sailing a few months back in a pretty busy boating through fare on Swan River we saw 2 swimmers about 10 metres apart and 200 metres from the shore bravely swimming along. Can't believe how they did not get hit. Certainly not easy to see. Madness
olewill
 
nigelmercier said:
PBO #561 June 2013 pages 34-35 describes a situation where a diver who has been separated from his dive boat is rescued. The article says: "It was now apparent that the small craft we had seen was a dive boat, although if it was displaying an Alpha flag it wasn't clearly visible from this distance".

When are the boating fraternity going to get it into their heads that dive boats rarely (if ever) display an Alpha flag; it is not distinct enough. The flag used by all dive boats is:

SCUBA_dive_flag.JPG
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Hi Nigel,

I think there are two points here. The use of the correct flag, and making sure it's visually prominent.

The IMO's International Code of Signals (which came into force in 1969) stipulates the use of A flag as meaning. 'I have a diver down. Keep well clear at slow speed.' Knowing how much insurance companies are looking for reasons not to pay out, they may well argue that if the correct flag was not being shown, is there a valid claim? And I must say that although a PADI diver myself, I was unaware of the use of the U flag for diving in certain areas of the world....

Making a flag prominent is hard especially in light winds. I remember seeing somewhere that it was recommended to ensure the dive flag was not reliant it should be fully visible at all times diving is in progress. For this, on Play d'eau, we use the wire from a wire hanger from which the flag is suspended. But even this doesn't slow some boats down, so we are thinking of getting a really large A flag (1 yard or more) and wearing it at the very top of the boat.

I also think that the International Code of Signals (USA edition) states that the U flag means 'You are running into danger' (not diving).

Do you know where the use of the U flag for diving comes from?
 
Piers, that is NOT the flag uniform. In fact, the flag in question does not appear in the alphabet or flags at all.
 
William_H said:
As said in Oz A flag is universally used. Even though PADI is the common SCUBA course. I have never heard of this red thing but will store it away in the memory bank.
I am always intrigued as to why SCUBA divers must be protected by a flag. Swimmers and snorkellers are at far more danger but have no protection. Sailing a few months back in a pretty busy boating through fare on Swan River we saw 2 swimmers about 10 metres apart and 200 metres from the shore bravely swimming along. Can't believe how they did not get hit. Certainly not easy to see. Madness
olewill
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While you are right that swimmers are hard to spot, they are at least on the surface. Divers may suddenly appear, and not necessarily near their boat, so an A flag is flown to suggest slowing in the general area, not just near the boat.
 
Piers said:
Making a flag prominent is hard especially in light winds. I remember seeing somewhere that it was recommended to ensure the dive flag was not reliant it should be fully visible at all times diving is in progress. For this, on Play d'eau, we use the wire from a wire hanger from which the flag is suspended. But even this doesn't slow some boats down, so we are thinking of getting a really large A flag (1 yard or more) and wearing it at the very top of the boat.
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Surely that's why COLREGS stipulate that it it is both rigid and at least 1 metre high?
 
William_H said:
As said in Oz A flag is universally used. Even though PADI is the common SCUBA course. I have never heard of this red thing but will store it away in the memory bank.
I am always intrigued as to why SCUBA divers must be protected by a flag. Swimmers and snorkellers are at far more danger but have no protection. Sailing a few months back in a pretty busy boating through fare on Swan River we saw 2 swimmers about 10 metres apart and 200 metres from the shore bravely swimming along. Can't believe how they did not get hit. Certainly not easy to see. Madness
olewill
Click to expand...

FWIW there is nothing to stop swimmers from using the A flag.
 
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