PBO #561: Diver down flag

vyv_cox said:
For my own education I looked at the BSAC site. There's a whole page on A-flag recognition http://www.bsac.com/page.asp?section=2949§ionTitle=A+Flag+Recognition+Publicity By implication it would seem that the red/white flag may be seen on buoys but no boats are shown with one.
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We (in BSAC as a member not a representative of BSAC) did a lot of publicity I think about 2 years ago to try to get more people to recognise the A flag and surface marker buoys - I posted the BSAC poster on here when it was being publicised

You are correct; the red/white flag may be seen on some american/far eastern marker buoys but is unlikely to be seen on a UK boat
 
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affinite said:
If I see either flag I know it means Diver Down - I would have thought most sailors did too.
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Would that they did. They certainly should, but AFAICS there's a fair few that don't know what an "A" flag means, let alone any other sort of flag.
International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea - Rule 27 requires (in daylight) " ... a rigid replica of the International Code flag "A" not less than 1 metre in height. Measures shall be taken to ensure its all-round visibility." RYA comment (Bartlett, 2009);
"Under-sized flags don't qualify
fabric flags don't qualify
other flags don't qualify.
A red flag with a white diagonal stripe was invented and marketed by a private individual in the 1950s, and although it has since been made a legal requirement for diving tenders in some American states, it has no official status elsewhere or in international law. Nevertheless, many divers regard it as "the dive flag"."

For what it's worth my PADI notes from 'way back mention both flags; but my recollection of RYA courses is that they concentrate attention on the "A" flag.
 
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DinghyMan said:
You are correct; the red/white flag may be seen on some american/far eastern marker buoys but is unlikely to be seen on a UK boat
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Perhaps not on a BSAC boat, but BSAC boats are a small minority. PADI dive boats should all have them, all over the world.

I just replied to the Editor's PA at YBW, when doing so I realised that a distinction should be made between a dive boat, and a boat owner doing a dive:

I seem to have sparked some debate on the YBW forum. Many of the contributors maintain that the “A flag” is often used, but I have never seen one in use for recreational dives; however, it is likely that they are used by boat owners. I am a PADI Advanced Diver, and have dived in the UK, Europe, the USA, Egypt and Mexico.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the red and white flag is a very common alternative, and is likely to be more visible.
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nigelmercier said:
Perhaps not on a BSAC boat, but BSAC boats are a small minority. PADI dive boats should all have them, all over the world. ...
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I think you are just ignoring all of the posts that the experienced divers on the forum have posted; the red/white flag is a yank thing, it is not used in the UK as it is the incorrect flag to fly, there is no such thing as a PADI/BSAC boat, ignoring boats owned and operated under BSAC clubs who fly the correct A flag, if a PADI club operates a boat in the UK they are required to fly the correct A flag not a yank flag. PADI divers can dive from any boat in the UK as can BSAC divers, sometimes they even manage to dive from the same boat or better still from a boat filled with GUE, IANTD, SSAC, or even possible DIR divers.

Every commercial and non-commercial boat I have dived off in the UK has flown the correct UK A flag, or had a solid version of it, there would be no reason for any dive boat in the UK to fly an unrecognised foreign flag when there is a proper recognised one in common use

The red/white flag is not the recognised UK flag for use when diving and you will rarely find it anywhere except on SMB's, DSMB's, markers, and it is not a recognised alternative to the A flag on a dive boat in the UK
 
I don't mean to be rude but PADI Advanced Diver is generally considered to be the equivalent of a BSAC Ocean Diver... Level 1 ... really not as 'Advanced' as the title may suggest. I'm not knocking it, my son who has more than 200 dives is a PADI Advanced Open Water diver too. I'm a BSAC Advanced Diver and Instructor with more than 2.5K dives from, between and including Antarctica and the Arctic. I know many many divers trained by all sorts of schools including Pay and Die Instantly and BSAC, SSI etc. There are good 'un and bad 'uns from all training systems. The international signal for 'divers down - keep clear at slow speed' as recognised by the US Navy for example as clearly described at
http://www.navy.mil/navydata/nav_legacy.asp?id=273
is the Flag Alpha. That's the one that should be used all over the world although I accept that the septic one is seen a lot in some places outwith the UK.
 
nigelmercier said:
It is not a "yank thing". It may have started with PADI, and it may not have any official meaning, but it is still the most recognisable dive flag worldwide.
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It is a yank thing and it is not the UK diver down flag as we are required to fly an A flag

I applaud promotion of recognition of the flags and surface marker buoys as that's what BSAC spent a lot of time trying to do but please promote the correct flag in the UK, the red/white flag may be in use outside the UK but the A flag is the internationally recognised divers down flag and that's what you will see in the UK
 
Whatever PADI says, an A flag has legal recognition.
But I'm surprised so few on here recognised the US alternative.
Do some people not have the Van Halen album?
 
Being based near Oban, I see, and know many dive boats every day. They all use "alpha" in some shape or form. I have NEVER seen the red striped thing, and until now wouldn't have known what it meant. (so maybe the OP has achieved something).

At one time in an earlier life I was involved in supervising marine civil engineering projects, including some in Royal Dockyards. When we had divers operating, we ALWAYS flew the correct International signal, viz flag Alpha.
 
OK so not a wind up then...

My research suggests that US federal law mandates use of the alpha flag in all navigable waters within us boundaries. Many state laws mandate the red and white flag but it doesn't trump federal law (even if most people use only the red and white). Happy to be contradicted on that: it's just googling.

However...I've never seen the red and white diver down flag in europe outside of anyone's record collection (as mentioned by lw395). Alpha all the time. Whilst I agree with Nigel that knowing the meaning of any flag is a good thing I would suggest that here at least if you only know the meaning of one red and white flag, "uniform" might be a better choice.

Can anyone point to a resource commonly used in teaching the yachtmaster syllabus (or anything else which the prudent UK yachtsperson should be using as a reference) which mentions the US dive flag? If not, it would be a very imprudent diver that used a flag which you couldn't reasonably expect most boaters to recognize in place of the one everyone does understand and the regulations demand
 
prv said:
:)

Professional Association of Diving Instructors (aka Pay And Dive, Inc. :p :) )
Divers' Alert Network (to be honest not really sure what they do, something to do with promoting safe diving)
Surface Marker Buoy - inflatable blob on a string so boats can see where their divers have got to.
Remotely Operated Vehicle - remote control robotic replacement for divers
British Sub Aqua Club - diving equivalent of the RYA combined with sailing clubs

Pete
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Cheers. I got one out of five!
 
jamie N said:
Flag 'A' is also displayed during ROV operations as there are 'diving operations' being undertaken. A few years ago I was running a UK ROV on an American vessel in US waters and this subject came into question. I refused to dive the ROV unless flag 'A' was displayed, the American vessel refused to display it as it's not necessary in US waters. My point was that's fine for US vessels, but we were in waters where Internationally registered vessels operate so the International flag must be shown, plus my operating procedures demand that it be displayed.
We came to a rock and a hard place mutual sulk until one side relented and the other side began to operate the ROV :p
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The international flag is flag alpha. I sub-contract our commercial divers to an American Salvage company and its the blue and white, but if working American waters both are used as the US one isn't an internationaly recognised flag. j
 
Nigel,

At least you've brought this to the attention of a handful of boaters who will have learnt what the red/white flag is supposed to mean. I hope that, in turn, you've learnt that it isn't widely recognized in UK waters and that divers in our waters will be better protected by using the correct flag. Perhaps that needs to be posted on a few diving forums?
 
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