PBO #561: Diver down flag

[prv]

So is Nigel going to come back and tell us we've all (including the divers amongst us) imagined this widespread use of A flags and absence of red and white stripes? Or is Kent actually a hotbed of imported American dive boats?

I'm just curious where he got the idea from behind his vigorous and repeated assertion that very few UK diving boats use A flags and all of them use the stripes.

Pete

 

[nigelmercier]

So is Nigel going to come back and tell us we've all (including the divers amongst us) imagined this widespread use of A flags and absence of red and white stripes?

I learned to dive in the UK, with PADI; this is the route that the majority of divers worldwide will use. During training we are shown the red and white flag, and it is displayed on all the dive boats. If you modify the search in my Google image link above by adding "UK" you will still see that the A flag is still in the minority.

The A flag may be a requirement, but it will not be as prominent or as visible as the red and white one. The point of my original post is that boaters need to be aware of this flag.

 

[prv]

it will not be as prominent or as visible as the red and white one.

But how do you square this with all the people in this thread, some of them divers themselves, who directly contradict it?

Probably about the same time most dive boats operating around Oban stop using a blue and white painted board, exclusively in my experience.

I often see Alpha flags. I can't recall seeing the other one

dive boats in the UK are legally required to fly the 'A' flag and everyone I've seen certainly does.

Interesting. I sail and dive and have only ever seen or used the Alpha one.

I dive and used to teach diving and every boat we have ever used at sea, and any we used on lakes including my dive kayak, flew the UK A flag not the yank one.

When i have dived in the UK its always been under an A flag

I've dived for 30+ years and always use the A flag, never seen that red one before.

(my emphasis)

Doesn't hurt for yotties to know that the red and white stripe is associated with diving, especially as it's sometimes seen on SMBs here, but your assertion that it is used in preference to the A flag in this country just doesn't stand up.

Pete

 

[DinghyMan]

PADI training is all american so showing you an american flag as part of UK training is pointless and incorrect as its not used in the UK. As mentioned above every dive boat I've been on has flown the proper UK dive flag and I've never seen teh american flag in use in the UK as it would be incorrect to use it

You should have trained with BSAC and got proper UK training which is quite different from PADI (Thats a joke in case anyone gets upset - I dive and teach BSAC but have trained PADI divers and the courses are very different)

Have a look at http://www.marinequest.co.uk/diving/technical-wreck-diving/ at the image in the gallery that is middle image on the bottom row and you can see just how big and visible a proper blue and white UK dive flag is, particularly when flown by a very good dive operation such as MarineQuest

 

[Dave_Seager]

I searched for "diver down flag" in Wikipedia. It says "A diver down flag, or scuba flag, is a flag used on the water to indicate that there is a diver below. In North America it is conventionally red with a white stripe from the upper left corner to the lower right corner. Internationally, the code flag alfa/alpha, which is white and blue, is used to signal that the vessel has a diver down and other vessels should keep well clear at slow speed."

I also looked at the PADI (UK) web site and followed links to the first diving equipment shop that I could find which was Divers Warehouse. Under "flags" they stock two types of A flag and a green one. No sign of a rad and white flag here.

Either Nigel or PADI is confused!

 

[KevO]

Have been diving and instructing all over the world for over 25 years, including as a military diving supervisor. A flag every time thanks with the septic one seen in lots of places overseas... Normally blerdy PADI outfits anyway. A flag is an international symbol and should be used as such IMHO.

 

[DinghyMan]

The yellow high vis one that diverswarehouse and others sell is a personal flag that is carried strapped to a cylinder as a backup and is used on the surface to show your position - it is about 1ft square. Its more normal to use an SMB but carrying a flag is good in poor vis and rough conditions but its easier to just clip off your SMB on your wing and lay back on the wing in the sun and wait for the boat to come to you

 

[nigelmercier]

Doesn't hurt for yotties to know that the red and white stripe is associated with diving, especially as it's sometimes seen on SMBs here, but your assertion that it is used in preference to the A flag in this country just doesn't stand up...

Perhaps I just haven't noticed the A flag, it isn't as visible. My point is that you may only see the red and white one.

Also note that the red and white flag is incorporated into the logo of the Divers Alert Network: https://www.daneurope.org/web/guest

 

[Norman_E]

I have never seen that red & white one used in Turkey. There are quite a few dive boats, and the only flag I see is the "A" code flag.

 

[jamie N]

Flag 'A' is also displayed during ROV operations as there are 'diving operations' being undertaken. A few years ago I was running a UK ROV on an American vessel in US waters and this subject came into question. I refused to dive the ROV unless flag 'A' was displayed, the American vessel refused to display it as it's not necessary in US waters. My point was that's fine for US vessels, but we were in waters where Internationally registered vessels operate so the International flag must be shown, plus my operating procedures demand that it be displayed.
We came to a rock and a hard place mutual sulk until one side relented and the other side began to operate the ROV

 

[DinghyMan]

Perhaps I just haven't noticed the A flag, it isn't as visible. My point is that you may only see the red and white one.

Also note that the red and white flag is incorporated into the logo of the Divers Alert Network: https://www.daneurope.org/web/guest

Thats because DAN is a yank company who don't change their american logo for the European operation

 

[nigelmercier]

I also looked at the PADI (UK) web site and followed links to the first diving equipment shop that I could find which was Divers Warehouse. Under "flags" they stock two types of A flag and a green one...

That's because divers don't need to buy flags, but look at their SMBs: http://www.diverswarehouse.co.uk/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=buoy+miflex&x=0&y=0

 

[prv]

Perhaps I just haven't noticed the A flag, it isn't as visible. My point is that you may only see the red and white one.

But you're more likely not to, since it appears to be only the occasional heavily-PADI-influenced boat that uses it.

Also note that the red and white flag is incorporated into the logo of the Divers Alert Network

But "Divers Alert Network" is a US outfit. As far as I was aware (may be wrong) they were only in the US when I was diving; I guess they've expanded since.

Pete

 

[prv]

look at their SMBs: http://www.diverswarehouse.co.uk/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=buoy+miflex&x=0&y=0

I note you've restricted the search to only the brand that uses the US flag. Try this search for an alternative view: http://www.diverswarehouse.co.uk/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=surface+marker

But you are correct that SMBs use a mix of both flags; I have seen both (together with plain green or orange) and I said so in post 23.

Pete

 

[Rigger Mortice]

PADI, DAN, SMB, ROV, BSAC (I can guess what that means!)....it's a whole new language out there.

All I ask is that they use a flag which represents the first letter of the alphabet.

 

[DinghyMan]

That's because divers don't need to buy flags, but look at their SMBs: http://www.diverswarehouse.co.uk/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=buoy+miflex&x=0&y=0

Those aren't the sort of SMB's that are normally used in the UK, these are; http://d6qf97p6c4oos.cloudfront.net/images/smbci.jpg or rarely http://d6qf97p6c4oos.cloudfront.net/images/smbrd.jpg

 

[nigelmercier]

Just remember you have another flag to look out for, and it may be the only one you see.

If one diver can be saved it was worth all the grief I seem to be getting for trying to be helpful.

 

[prv]

PADI, DAN, SMB, ROV, BSAC (I can guess what that means!)....it's a whole new language out there.

Professional Association of Diving Instructors (aka Pay And Dive, Inc. )
Divers' Alert Network (to be honest not really sure what they do, something to do with promoting safe diving)
Surface Marker Buoy - inflatable blob on a string so boats can see where their divers have got to.
Remotely Operated Vehicle - remote control robotic replacement for divers
British Sub Aqua Club - diving equivalent of the RYA combined with sailing clubs

Pete

 

[prv]

If one diver can be saved it was worth all the grief I seem to be getting for trying to be helpful.

If you'd just said "sailors should be aware that there is another flag, red with white stripe, that is unofficially associated with diving and, if used, may be seen before the A flag" then I'm sure nobody would have batted an eyelid.

It's when you try to make factual assertions - "dive boats rarely (if ever) display an Alpha flag", "The flag used by all dive boats [is red and white]" - that the forum will do its best to bring out the real truth. Woe betide anyone doing that who cannot back up their assertions

Pete

 

[nigelmercier]

It's when you try to make factual assertions - "dive boats rarely (if ever) display an Alpha flag", "The flag used by all dive boats [is red and white]" - that the forum will do its best to bring out the real truth. Woe betide anyone doing that who cannot back up their assertions

Fair enough, perhaps I should have said "In my experience of dive boats in the UK, Europe, Egypt, and Mexico ..."