westernman
Well-Known Member
Beneteaus are made in a factory.
Real boats are built in a boat yard.
Part 3 Registration??
- Thread starter goeasy123
- Start date
Real boats are built in a boat yard.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Mine was a QUESTION - an invitation to detail more why Pt 1 ... not a statement
I read his post and it appears to not be a world girdling boatie ...
If he is off to sunnier climes far afield - then I agree with you Pt 1 .... but if its within N Europe / not so far off - then you yourself in your post at me - say Pt 3 ...
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I thought his first sentence after thread drift was pretty clear. You made your assumptions about what he meant, but seems to me that he thinks his plans might mean Part 1 would be the route to go - otherwise why ask the second question about what is required in relation to boat documentation?
The distinction between Part 1 and Part 3 is little to do with the distance travelled, but your residence and the location of the boat - that is Part 3 for UK based boats making short trips abroad. Many people lose residence according to the Part 3 rules without having residence elsewhere. As this thread shows many who ignored the advice when they were able to get Part 3 have now discovered this was a mistake.
As ever it helps to understand the rules, how they are applied, consider the options in relation to your specific circumstances and plans then make your choice.
14K478
Well-Known Member
The MCA have changed the rules
goeasy123
Well-Known Member
For now the boat is long term sailing, the crew goes back to the UK frequently and for more than 185 days/year, has and will have a UK address. If we want to do less than 185 days in the UK there are 4 options:
1. Don't mention the crew's status.
2. Change to P1. A PITA as the boat is a long way from the UK.
3. Change to another country's registration with suitable residency requirements.
4. Get a Certificate of Identity (CiD). There is more than one country (Ireland in particular) that does not have a register suitable for pleasure craft that does this.
I know contributors here insist registration is required, but at least all Med EU countries have accepted CiD's. Again I ask.... I'd like to see the source law that either permits this or mandates registration?
Are there others.
Daverw
Well-Known Member
Does CiD cover registered state ensign? some areas expect this to be matched by some documentation
goeasy123
Well-Known Member
In Ireland you provide the same proof of ownership as would be required for a UK P3. You are them issued with a numbered document identifying the owner and the boat (by hull number amongst other features). The ISA keeps a public record for anyone that wants to check. There is no right or requirment to fly a state ensign. The process, document and record meets the requirment to prove ownership without associating the boat with a flag or state, apart from the public record being held in Ireland.
There are probably at least 200 boats sailing international waters using the CiD without challenge.
14K478
Well-Known Member
I remember going from Oban to Iona on the TS Queen Mary II as a boy. Folklore has it that Cunard flagged out because of weddings but I don’t know if that is true. I was told that by a friend in the Pink Lubyanka. I was just making a point.
I’ll try again:
UK Part One. Good enough for the fleet of container ships that I manage, from Vladivostok (not at the moment, and it’s one of the most corrupt ports on Earth) to Valparaiso via Los Angeles and Sydney; good enough for my little plastic boat.
Why does anyone go out of their way to be snarky on a sailing forum?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I thought I had been clear that registration is not mandated, just "normal". Once you deviate from that you are at the mercy of any official or state that wants to make your life difficult. Why would one want to do that? You can get the survey done anywhere, even flying out an approved surveyor to do the job.
As I said, I fail to understand why anybody would want to make life difficult for themselves. Appreciate that many ignored the advice and took the easy way out by using Part 3 when they intended to do something in their cruising plans that might mean Part 3 was not sustainable, but now your alternatives are even more sub optimal than biting the bullet and getting the proper registration for your bot.
BTW don't understand your option 1 - your crew's status is irrelevant. you just need a recognised identity for your boat.
wonkywinch
Well-Known Member
Or end their statement with "Discuss" as if they are a teacher. Admittedly not as widespread on these forums as some.
goeasy123
Well-Known Member
Sorry I haven't explained fully. Now forget Part 1 and 3 for the purpose of the dialogue. I realise my original question is redundant.
One is at the mercy of officials weather you're doing what's "normal" or not. That is evidenced by my own experience and the variant behaviours of officials, particularly in Greece, Italy and Portugal as recently reported in forums and through the remedial work of the Cruising Association.
The buck stops with the individual when he or she has to know the facts, rather than the second order opinions and assertions of forum posters. Knowing the facts starts with being able to find and understand the source law. So where is that?
I agree Part 1 is a 'proper' option and I might finish up with that. In my particular case an Irish CiD is likely to be a better option that I would like to consider. It comes with some significant benefits that Part 1 does not offer. Intially, to make my decision I need the source law or laws. Later, when I meet an errant official I need to quote the source law.
I'm simply asking and hoping that some knowledgable person can direct me to an official source on which their assertions are based, as I'm having difficulty in finding it. And maybe offer some advise on how to use it. As you might appreciate this is likely to be EU and international law rather than any UK law relating to UK registration.
Any input will be much appreciated.
GHA
Well-Known Member
Telling the guy in the uniform he and the form he's filling in are wrong is really not a good idea, you'll lose. .
Noonsite has country requirements, invariably boat registration. No one has ever heard of CiD.
For example >
Noonsite.com - The Ultimate Cruisers Planning Tool
"Yachts must carry their original registration document, insurance policy and ship's radio licence. One member of the crew must have a radio operator’s certificate of competence"
RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
Part 1 is not proof of ownership and the Part 1 certificate states that quite clearly in the notes section on the back of the certificate, think of it like the V5 vehicle registration document, which is not proof of ownership, just who the "keeper" of the vehicle is.
Part 1 does require you to notify change of status from leisure to commercial e.g. sailing school or charter yacht and to confirm at renewal that it is still only used for leisure and not commercial purposes.
The above is all very clear for anyone who has Part 1 registration and renews, the questions are very specific. My yacht has been Part 1 registered from new in '74, with me having renewed 3 times in my ownership, just yesterday.
I think elsewhere in the thread some folks mentioned bill of sale as being required to prove ownership as part of the yachts documents when visiting foreign ports.
14K478
Well-Known Member
Part One Registration IS proof of title; the Certificate of Registry is not.
A Transcript of Register is.
This is why on sale of a Part One registered vessel the seller produces a Transcript of Register timed as close to the transaction closing as possible. The seller does not produce the last Bill of Sale.
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RunAgroundHard
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the correction on the differences between the certificate and register.
goeasy123
Well-Known Member
I and others I've met have to frequently challenge the guys in uniform, respectfully and fully equiped with the facts and source law. If you've recently sailed in Greece or Italy with an EU passport, a UK flag, UK resident with a 3rd country spouse and with Union Goods status you will understand what I mean.
Noonsite is not source and has been proven wrong in many cases. In particular, as Tranona say, you do not have to carry original registration. It may be advisable, but Noonsite does not say that. This is a good example of why one should not trust intermediate opinion and assertion and why I want the source.
Noonsite is bound to be wrong from time to time as it's maintained through reports from members that discovery inconsistancies.
What is the source law?
GHA
Well-Known Member
That's so naïve I'm afraid, speak to anyone who's been out for any length of time.
One thing, just check in after me cos you're really going to wind up the port captain & PM.
PlanB
Well-Known Member
It's been a while since there has been a thread on docs, but a search on here (or liveaboard) will find several posts where in France, for example, someone has been frogmarched to the ATM to collect the money to pay the fine for not having an original reg doc, only a copy.
And I know Spanish marinas where you will not get in without the correct docs, regardless of what some high level legislation might say.
And I know Spanish marinas where you will not get in without the correct docs, regardless of what some high level legislation might say.
westernman
Well-Known Member
Some people seem to attract trouble where ever they go.
Are they the same people who are picked out by customs and have their luggage searched?
I have never had an issue in France or Spain with a UK flagged boat. Despite it being crewed by Vietnamese boat people (literally).
Although in one port, they did drop my registration document in the water. They called out a diver to find it! Being encapsulated in plastic it suffered no ill effect.
I have never had my luggage searched by customs in hundreds of flights around Europe, USA, China, South East Asia, Israel, etc, etc.
GHA
Well-Known Member
Generally port officials are invariably very professional IME. But lots of ways to make life easier. Have the docs they require, polo shirt, shaved & long trousers, be very nice, make a show of trying to speak some local language from google translate, listen to the local radio - if they won the cricket the day before slip that in.. All pushes the odds for an easy life in your favour
