Part 3 Registration??

[RupertW]

The people I referred to had cut all ties with UK, having taken up residence in Portugal. Being below retirement age they didn't qualify for the S1 scheme which maintains eligibility for NHS treatment. Before Brexit, those of us resident there were entitled to Portuguese EHIC which allowed treatment in any EU country but now have to have contributed to social security by working, to qualify for one.

I work in NHS admin and before Brexit and now working age British citizens from all over the world came back for non-emergency treatment who had been resident abroad for years. They needed to have their stories straight before first contact on how they were now residents in the UK indefinitely. The most common one was first babies and the most common story was that they had separated from their husband abroad and were living with parents now in the UK a d actively seeking work post baby.

Also lots of hips and knees from people in their 50s moving back to live with their adult children.

We knew, they knew but as long as they passed rules fairly plausibly everyone was happy. Second babies following an immediate reconciliation followed by another recent separation didn’t work quite so well, so an actual UK job was required of either party.

 

[goeasy123]

Occasionally?? Every time you go into a marina, PM come to say hello or you check into a new country - not sure about the UK non EU passport holders going into Europe, certainly everywhere else in the world uk boat or not registration docs are essential.

I'm not sure you're right. I think international law says you need a document of some sort to evidence ownership and that it is recorded by a suitably accredited party. This doesn't have to be a ships registration as we know it.

As I've said in a previous post.... I'd like to see the source law that says it one way or another??

 

[GHA]

I'm not sure you're right. I think international law says you need a document of some sort to evidence ownership and that it is recorded by a suitably accredited party. This doesn't have to be a ships registration as we know it.

As I've said in a previous post.... I'd like to see the source law that says it one way or another??

Forget any source, go out into the real world & see what happens. Ships registration document & passports are always wanted. Insurance if it's a marina.

 

[westernman]

Forget any source, go out into the real world & see what happens. Ships registration document & passports are always wanted. Insurance if it's a marina.

Down here, France/Spain, registration always, insurance sometimes, passports just once.
UK Flag part I.

My crew member and joint owner is asian with a French passport, but as I said, we were asked for passports just once, and just mine as Captain once in Spain by the Spanish police who were checking out the visiting boats in the marina that day. They also wanted to see the registration document, but the Capitainerie had that and they did not seem put out when I told them that.

 

[Tranona]

As usual when this subject comes up there is a load of misinformation about registration when it really is very simple. International maritime law requires ships (including yachts) when in international waters or in other flag state waters to evidence their flag of registry - that is home state. It is not prescriptive about the documentation required but it is normally the registration document. (there is case law details of which are back of my mental filing cabinet where means other than a registration document were acceptable). However the cases are esoteric and usually involve complicated commercial shipping issues. for private leisure yachts UK registration is universally accepted

Flag state does not have to be the state of residence or citizenship of the owner(s) although in most cases there is a connection with one of those, particularly with private yachts. Many states also use registration for their own internal reasons that are quite different from Flag state, and many also offer registration of legal title (somewhat akin to ownership but not quite the same).

The UK has two registers open to private leisure yachts. The Part 1 register of British Ships is a register of title (hence the need for evidence that the boat exists via the survey and of title secure enough to show a history of unchallenged title, usually through a trail of Bills of Sale) as well as evidence of Flag State. This is an open register so anybody who meets the criteria can use it, British citizens have an automatic right, but if non resident (like other non residents) have to nominate an "representative" in the UK for any communications. Part 3 is intended for boats based in the UK which may visit other states and is open to all residents of the UK. It is not a register of title, just meets the accepted Flag State requirement. It was introduced in the late 1990s specifically in response to pressure from France to ensure that the growing number of visiting yachts from the UK were able to meet the Flag State requirement.

Because the UK is almost unique in Europe in having such a simple system, over the years it has been abused by many because for a long time just a residential address in UK was accepted and a large number of European boats used the register to avoid the draconian requirements of their local registries - that is as a "flag of convenience". For that reason the residence requirement has been much more narrowly defined and enforced. This of course has also meant that many UK citizens who are non resident and don't keep their boats in the UK can no longer use Part 3.

Personally I don't understand the reluctance of some, who because they choose not to reside in the UK, to registering on Part 1. It is a bargain compared with any other open register of title that gives evidence of Flag State.

 

[Refueler]

It was introduced in the late 1990s

?????? Pt3 was created based on the 1983 Merchant Shipping Act and actually commenced 1993.

Personally I don't understand the reluctance of some, who because they choose not to reside in the UK, to registering on Part 1. It is a bargain compared with any other open register of title that gives evidence of Flag State.

Great until the state you keep the boat in says - get out - you've stayed too long ... or change to OUR registry ... which is what it looks like Latvia will be doing soon.

 

[dunedin]

?????? Pt3 was created based on the 1983 Merchant Shipping Act and actually commenced 1993.



Great until the state you keep the boat in says - get out - you've stayed too long ... or change to OUR registry ... which is what it looks like Latvia will be doing soon.

To be fair, you and your boats are permanent residents in another state, Latvia, and therefore subject to their laws.
There are a lot of UK laws that a Latvian resident in the UK would need to adhere to.

 

[awol]

Part One. Good enough for the Queen Mary II, good enough for my boat. End of.

If you mean RMS Queen Mary 2 - she is registered in the Bahamas. On the other hand TS Queen Mary II, the II added after the Cunard liner stole her name in 1935, has reverted to TS Queen Mary and needs money for restoration.
Why does anyone use "end of"?

 

[Refueler]

To be fair, you snd your boats are permanent residents in another state, Latvia, and therefore subject to their laws.
There are a lot of UK laws that a Latvian resident in the UK would need to adhere to.

I have not said anywhere that its 'unfair' .... but its the reasons behind it ... and that Latvia is a member of the EU ....

 

[westernman]

I have not said anywhere that its 'unfair' .... but its the reasons behind it ... and that Latvia is a member of the EU ....

Who could have ever thought of that.
An EU country making its own rules an exercising its sovereignty.

 

[Refueler]

Who could have ever thought of that.
An EU country making its own rules an exercising its sovereignty.

You may jest - but if you were to see how Latvian Govt acts - its not so funny ... left hand grabbing every penny it can from EU ... right hand filching it away on stupid projects that 'guess who benefits' .....

If I told you that you were to change from a 50euro registration to over 500euro ... with no benefit whatsoever ? Swedish gives me free moorings in many places of Swedish Islands ... Latvian ?? zero - zilch !!

 

[Tranona]

Great until the state you keep the boat in says - get out - you've stayed too long ... or change to OUR registry ... which is what it looks like Latvia will be doing soon.

Your choice. You can register both your boats on Part 1 and probably get a discount for 2 surveys at the same time.

However if the Latvian government wants to set its own rules for residents then it is perfectly entitled to.

Ships Registration is not an EU competence so the fact that Latvia is in the EU is irrelevant. There are widely varying registration regimes for citizens/residents within the EU, most to do with controlling activities and nothing to do with the "Flag State" role of the register.

 

[Tranona]

This is an appropriate time to raise the issue of "flags of convenience" as yesterday was the 100th anniversary of the seizing of the British registered Tomoka 6 miles off the New Jersey coast. Arrived from the Bahamas with a cargo of liquor most of which was sold outside the then 3 mile limit of territorial waters. Although British registered the US Revenue claimed she was US owned and was using her own motorboats to deliver the liquor ashore. This all took place while the Federal government was negotiating on a 12 mile limit but it was not then agreed so did not support the Revenue and the ship and crew were released.

 

[Minerva]

Without wanting to fred drift too wildly….

I expect within the next year I’ll be buying a new (second hand) boat, capable of taking my family to foreign climes and adventurous places.

Assuming I do wish to go Pt.1 but the boats not already on the register (but bought in UK vat paid etc) - what do I need to get from the broker / previous owner to smooth the process? What happens if I am not furnished with all the bills of sale from build?

Thanks

 

[AngusMcDoon]

.

 

[Tranona]

Without wanting to fred drift too wildly….

I expect within the next year I’ll be buying a new (second hand) boat, capable of taking my family to foreign climes and adventurous places.

Assuming I do wish to go Pt.1 but the boats not already on the register (but bought in UK vat paid etc) - what do I need to get from the broker / previous owner to smooth the process? What happens if I am not furnished with all the bills of sale from build?

Thanks

First off VAT is irrelevant. If you are dealing with a broker then he will handle it for you, and advise if it is possible given the available paperwork. You don't need a complete record of BoS just sufficient to show the title that was transferred to you was sound, so at least the BoS to the current owner. When you get to the point check with the registry that what you have is acceptable before you make your offer.

 

[Refueler]

Without wanting to fred drift too wildly….

I expect within the next year I’ll be buying a new (second hand) boat, capable of taking my family to foreign climes and adventurous places.

Assuming I do wish to go Pt.1 but the boats not already on the register (but bought in UK vat paid etc) - what do I need to get from the broker / previous owner to smooth the process? What happens if I am not furnished with all the bills of sale from build?

Thanks

Why go Pt1 ??? Why not just SSR (Pt 3) ...much simpler ....

 

[14K478]

This is an appropriate time to raise the issue of "flags of convenience" as yesterday was the 100th anniversary of the seizing of the British registered Tomoka 6 miles off the New Jersey coast. Arrived from the Bahamas with a cargo of liquor most of which was sold outside the then 3 mile limit of territorial waters. Although British registered the US Revenue claimed she was US owned and was using her own motorboats to deliver the liquor ashore. This all took place while the Federal government was negotiating on a 12 mile limit but it was not then agreed so did not support the Revenue and the ship and crew were released.

Ha! Lets go back a bit further: The Second Opium War ...

A tale of two xenophobic intellectuals... | Gwulo

 

[Tranona]

Why go Pt1 ??? Why not just SSR (Pt 3) ...much simpler ....

Because if he (as suggested) is going of long term sailing then he may well encounter difficulties renewing in the future.

The advice has always been from both the RYA and the registry use Part 1 if you are travelling world wide or Part 3 (as intended) if you are UK based with occasional trips abroad.

What is so difficult about that? If people had followed that sound advice there would not be threads like this.

 

[Minerva]

First off VAT is irrelevant. If you are dealing with a broker then he will handle it for you, and advise if it is possible given the available paperwork. You don't need a complete record of BoS just sufficient to show the title that was transferred to you was sound, so at least the BoS to the current owner. When you get to the point check with the registry that what you have is acceptable before you make your offer.

Thanks - I had feared it would be showing provenance of ownship since it left the factory. Just the previous BoS makes sense though.