Gunfleet
Well-Known Member
I say, Chief Petty Officer, what's that big grey thingy coming up on the left hand side fast?
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Paper charts are dead
- Thread starter oldsalt
- Start date
Keith
Well-Known Member
couple of things, the average warship has a lot of room for an automated chartplotting system, the other thing is theres very little chance of it getting wet on a bridge which is air conditioned to boot. The good thing about paper charts is that you can pencil in any little "anomalies" you may find, new jetties, etc......keith
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MainlySteam
Well-Known Member
I suspect that paper charts and their distribution, as we know them to be, have very little life left.
Official charts will in a very short time only be available in electronic form and if you want a paper copy you will likely have to get it printed from the current electronic chart data remotely from the chart producer or Regional ENC Co-ordinating Centre.
For example, my understanding is that NIMA (USA) are commited, on the completion of their DNC (ENC) project, to discontinue the production of paper charts. One would have to assume that all other significant nation producers of official charts eg UKHO, are heading in the same direction.
It would also seem to me that, even sooner, paper charts in many countries will become expensive compared to electronic charts - as examples, that is already the case in USA and New Zealand at least, admittedly in those two cases in part because of the data being regarded as being in public ownership - USA Charts are available free electronically as are the ones here in NZ (only raster here at moment, but ENC will be same - one actually just pays the cost of producing the CD-ROM here which is around the equivalent of GBP20 for the whole set of around 150 NZ charts whereas, again at the cost of printing, warehousing and distribution only, we pay about the equivalent of GBP8 for each paper chart ie a paper chart is about 60 times the cost of an electronic one).
I also wonder at the life of the proprietary electronic charts/media such as C-Map, etc, as when official ENC charts become widely available I am unsure of where the proprietary ones will fit in. Perhaps a niche market only, in the same way as there are currently a few producers of non official paper charts meeting niche demands?
John
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Official charts will in a very short time only be available in electronic form and if you want a paper copy you will likely have to get it printed from the current electronic chart data remotely from the chart producer or Regional ENC Co-ordinating Centre.
For example, my understanding is that NIMA (USA) are commited, on the completion of their DNC (ENC) project, to discontinue the production of paper charts. One would have to assume that all other significant nation producers of official charts eg UKHO, are heading in the same direction.
It would also seem to me that, even sooner, paper charts in many countries will become expensive compared to electronic charts - as examples, that is already the case in USA and New Zealand at least, admittedly in those two cases in part because of the data being regarded as being in public ownership - USA Charts are available free electronically as are the ones here in NZ (only raster here at moment, but ENC will be same - one actually just pays the cost of producing the CD-ROM here which is around the equivalent of GBP20 for the whole set of around 150 NZ charts whereas, again at the cost of printing, warehousing and distribution only, we pay about the equivalent of GBP8 for each paper chart ie a paper chart is about 60 times the cost of an electronic one).
I also wonder at the life of the proprietary electronic charts/media such as C-Map, etc, as when official ENC charts become widely available I am unsure of where the proprietary ones will fit in. Perhaps a niche market only, in the same way as there are currently a few producers of non official paper charts meeting niche demands?
John
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david
Well-Known Member
Yes, going the way of the Dodo
For those who insist that paper & pencil is best then carry on doing it your way, but don't preach to those who saw the light and decided to upgrade to a better/modern and more precise (exact) way of navigating. The only use my paper charts get is when I do a 24hr+ out of sight of land trip to plot an hourly position for a back up.
While the pencil & paper users are pondering over the winter months and sweating if they calulated courses, tide times etc correctly for forthcomming trips into the unkown, I will be using my computer/Seapro knowing I am where I am exactly, I will know my HDG, COG, CTS magnetic and true, my ulitimate time for departure, and a very good ETA, together with tidal/wind information calculated for my course to steer without looking once at an almanac. All this done in about 10 - 20 seconds, now I'm gonna make a cup of char while you old pencil & paper brigade sweat it out.
PS... advice to those who insist on pencil & paper and wear glasses, don't ever forget to keep a spare pair on board for if you lose them over the side you will be calling the RNLI to show you the way home. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
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For those who insist that paper & pencil is best then carry on doing it your way, but don't preach to those who saw the light and decided to upgrade to a better/modern and more precise (exact) way of navigating. The only use my paper charts get is when I do a 24hr+ out of sight of land trip to plot an hourly position for a back up.
While the pencil & paper users are pondering over the winter months and sweating if they calulated courses, tide times etc correctly for forthcomming trips into the unkown, I will be using my computer/Seapro knowing I am where I am exactly, I will know my HDG, COG, CTS magnetic and true, my ulitimate time for departure, and a very good ETA, together with tidal/wind information calculated for my course to steer without looking once at an almanac. All this done in about 10 - 20 seconds, now I'm gonna make a cup of char while you old pencil & paper brigade sweat it out.
PS... advice to those who insist on pencil & paper and wear glasses, don't ever forget to keep a spare pair on board for if you lose them over the side you will be calling the RNLI to show you the way home. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
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john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Further to my previous post. I can confirm that RN ships carry full sets of paper charts for the areas they are working in. Some carry folios for the entire world. (Pity the Nav's Yeoman who does the corrections.)
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MainlySteam
Well-Known Member
Thanks John.
John
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John
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Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
VHS or Betamax?
So if you choose an electronic charting system now, which one do you choose. Because as sure as eggs is eggs, one charting system will eventually predominate, and the rest will be as useful as 8-track stereo cartridges.
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So if you choose an electronic charting system now, which one do you choose. Because as sure as eggs is eggs, one charting system will eventually predominate, and the rest will be as useful as 8-track stereo cartridges.
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oldsalt
Well-Known Member
Here's one of the articles (Scotsman)
Navy Sinks Paper Charts as Electronic Navigation Takes Over
By Tom Kelly, PA News
Royal Navy ships will stop relying on paper charts to guide their course after the Government invested £29 million in an electronic navigation system, ministers said today.
Lockheed Martin won the contract for the state-of-the-art technology which is expected to boost ships’ accuracy and improve safety.
The system will warn captains of impending minefields and give extra details of beaches to aid amphibious landings.
It will bring to an end the era of using traditional paper charts which have been the main guide for Royal Navy vessels since 1795.
The contract is expected to create more than 75 British jobs and extra jobs in Canada, where the technology was designed.
Defence Procurement Minister Lord Bach said electronic charting was a vital requirement for the Royal Navy.
He added: “Enhanced situational awareness will ensure our navigating capability is more accurate, efficient and responsive.
“I am delighted that such significant technology will be developed and produced in this country.”
Nearly 50 vessels will initially be fitted with the system, including the major aircraft carriers and all Royal Navy submarines, starting this summer.
The Ministry of Defence said paper charts had been the main navigational tool for Royal Navy sailors for over two centuries, including those involved in the Iraq War.
“It does seem incredible, but they have been very accurate,” said a spokeswoman.
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Navy Sinks Paper Charts as Electronic Navigation Takes Over
By Tom Kelly, PA News
Royal Navy ships will stop relying on paper charts to guide their course after the Government invested £29 million in an electronic navigation system, ministers said today.
Lockheed Martin won the contract for the state-of-the-art technology which is expected to boost ships’ accuracy and improve safety.
The system will warn captains of impending minefields and give extra details of beaches to aid amphibious landings.
It will bring to an end the era of using traditional paper charts which have been the main guide for Royal Navy vessels since 1795.
The contract is expected to create more than 75 British jobs and extra jobs in Canada, where the technology was designed.
Defence Procurement Minister Lord Bach said electronic charting was a vital requirement for the Royal Navy.
He added: “Enhanced situational awareness will ensure our navigating capability is more accurate, efficient and responsive.
“I am delighted that such significant technology will be developed and produced in this country.”
Nearly 50 vessels will initially be fitted with the system, including the major aircraft carriers and all Royal Navy submarines, starting this summer.
The Ministry of Defence said paper charts had been the main navigational tool for Royal Navy sailors for over two centuries, including those involved in the Iraq War.
“It does seem incredible, but they have been very accurate,” said a spokeswoman.
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MainlySteam
Well-Known Member
My, not quite recent, understanding for the US Navy is that they were to have the whole fleet over to electronic charts by this year (how they are getting on I do not know). It was also their stated intention that they would follow the IMO SOLAS recommendation for carriage of charts which means if electronic charts are used then a back up system must exist - my understanding (stated earlier and no one has said anything different) is that a second electronic charting system on board is sufficient for that.
Whether the USN is carrying paper charts as the backup or a backup electronic system would be interesting to know.
John
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Whether the USN is carrying paper charts as the backup or a backup electronic system would be interesting to know.
John
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oldsalt
Well-Known Member
Interesting...
Look at http://164.214.2.53/dncpublic/background.htm for more details. The bit that caught my eye is this: "Will the option of using paper charts be available? Will NIMA still produce paper charts?
One of the benefits of the DNC® is that a paper chart will eventually be produced from the digital database, thereby reducing associated printing costs. NIMA will continue to produce a limited amount of paper charts for as long as there is a valid DoD and USCG requirement for paper products. NIMA will gradually phase out traditional paper chart production and transition to alternate methods of satisfying low volume paper chart requirements, e.g., Print on Demand/Remote Replication. " ( http://www.nga.mil/ast/faq/view/instance/0,1320,3104_18038_118680_9,00.html)
I think it's safe to say that as soon as yachtie hardware overcomes reliability problems, then paper is on the way out. It's interesting that even the mere discussion of this gets people so hot under the collar. I wonder if these are the same people who complained when roller furling gennys were first introduced?
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Look at http://164.214.2.53/dncpublic/background.htm for more details. The bit that caught my eye is this: "Will the option of using paper charts be available? Will NIMA still produce paper charts?
One of the benefits of the DNC® is that a paper chart will eventually be produced from the digital database, thereby reducing associated printing costs. NIMA will continue to produce a limited amount of paper charts for as long as there is a valid DoD and USCG requirement for paper products. NIMA will gradually phase out traditional paper chart production and transition to alternate methods of satisfying low volume paper chart requirements, e.g., Print on Demand/Remote Replication. " ( http://www.nga.mil/ast/faq/view/instance/0,1320,3104_18038_118680_9,00.html)
I think it's safe to say that as soon as yachtie hardware overcomes reliability problems, then paper is on the way out. It's interesting that even the mere discussion of this gets people so hot under the collar. I wonder if these are the same people who complained when roller furling gennys were first introduced?
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oldsalt
Well-Known Member
I've eventualy found the official press release from the MOD. No mention whatsoever of paper as a back up system. Is there anyone with actual knowledge of this, rather than stating what they want to believe?
http://news.mod.uk/news/press/news_press_notice.asp?newsItem_id=2763
NAVY TO GET WORLD-CLASS NAVIGATION SYSTEM
Press Notice no: 002/04
8 January 2004
Royal Navy ships are to receive a world-class electronic chart and navigation system, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) announced today.
A £29 million contract to design, manufacture and support the new system, known as WECDIS, (Warship Electronic Chart Display and Information Systems) has been awarded to Lockheed Martin UK Ltd. The contract award is expected to sustain more than 75 British jobs.
WECDIS is a state-of-the-art system that will provide the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary with electronic charts and information to enhance situational awareness. It will greatly increase navigational accuracy and improve ships' safety.
WECDIS will improve the maritime picture through features that can overlay military data, such as prohibited areas of minefields, beach profiles for amphibious landings and dived navigation facilities for submarines. The technology for each ship will be composed of two operator control stations together with a laptop and remote station for route planning.
The introduction of WECDIS will bring an end to the era of using traditional paper charts and the bridge's navigating table. Official paper charts have been used since 1795.
Defence Procurement Minister, Lord Bach, said:
"Electronic charting is a vital requirement for our Fleet and WECDIS is a world-class system. Enhanced situational awareness will ensure our navigating capability is more accurate, efficient and responsive.
I am delighted that such significant technology will be developed and produced in this country."
48 major ships will initially be fitted with WECDIS, including the Invincible class aircraft carriers, all Royal Navy submarines and Royal Fleet Auxiliary tankers. The first system will be fitted to a Type 23 frigate in mid-2004.
Announcing the contract award at the London Boat Show today, Flag Officer Training and Recruiting, Rear Admiral Peter Davies said:
"WECDIS is an important step forward in the history of the British Navy's navigation. In just a few months time the system will be ready and installed on the first frigate. With high technology jobs being secured through the contract award, WECDIS is good news for both our Armed Forces and British industry."
Lockheed Martin UK Ltd - Integrated Systems is the Prime Contractor for the programme with responsibility as overall systems integrator and programme manager. Under Lockheed Martin UK, Kelvin Hughes Ltd will manufacture the WECDIS hardware, Offshore Systems Ltd will produce the software and Babcock Design and Technology will be involved in the installation design and shipfitting.
Notes to editors
1. Pictures available on request.
2. The 48 ships that will initially receive WECDIS include the Invincible class carriers, HMS Ocean, HMS Albion, Type 22 and Type 23 frigates, Type 42 destroyers, Royal Fleet Auxiliary fleet tankers and replenishment ships, all Royal Navy submarines and a number of specialist ships including survey ships.
3. Of the 75 jobs sustained by the contract award the majority will be within Kelvin Hughes, based in Hainault, Essex.
4. The total contract value is £29 million, of which £10 million is for the design, manufacture and installation of WECDIS and a further £19 million to support its in-service life.
5. Lockheed Martin UK Ltd - Integrated Systems - is based in Havant, Hampshire. Kelvin Hughes Ltd is based in Hainault, Essex and Offshore Systems Ltd. in Vancouver, Canada. Babcock Design and Technology are based in Weymouth and Rosyth.
6. For further information please contact the DPA Press Office:
Rebecca Gledhill (0117) 913 0637, mob (07810) 166238 or Ralph Dunn (0117) 913 0636.
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http://news.mod.uk/news/press/news_press_notice.asp?newsItem_id=2763
NAVY TO GET WORLD-CLASS NAVIGATION SYSTEM
Press Notice no: 002/04
8 January 2004
Royal Navy ships are to receive a world-class electronic chart and navigation system, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) announced today.
A £29 million contract to design, manufacture and support the new system, known as WECDIS, (Warship Electronic Chart Display and Information Systems) has been awarded to Lockheed Martin UK Ltd. The contract award is expected to sustain more than 75 British jobs.
WECDIS is a state-of-the-art system that will provide the Royal Navy and Royal Fleet Auxiliary with electronic charts and information to enhance situational awareness. It will greatly increase navigational accuracy and improve ships' safety.
WECDIS will improve the maritime picture through features that can overlay military data, such as prohibited areas of minefields, beach profiles for amphibious landings and dived navigation facilities for submarines. The technology for each ship will be composed of two operator control stations together with a laptop and remote station for route planning.
The introduction of WECDIS will bring an end to the era of using traditional paper charts and the bridge's navigating table. Official paper charts have been used since 1795.
Defence Procurement Minister, Lord Bach, said:
"Electronic charting is a vital requirement for our Fleet and WECDIS is a world-class system. Enhanced situational awareness will ensure our navigating capability is more accurate, efficient and responsive.
I am delighted that such significant technology will be developed and produced in this country."
48 major ships will initially be fitted with WECDIS, including the Invincible class aircraft carriers, all Royal Navy submarines and Royal Fleet Auxiliary tankers. The first system will be fitted to a Type 23 frigate in mid-2004.
Announcing the contract award at the London Boat Show today, Flag Officer Training and Recruiting, Rear Admiral Peter Davies said:
"WECDIS is an important step forward in the history of the British Navy's navigation. In just a few months time the system will be ready and installed on the first frigate. With high technology jobs being secured through the contract award, WECDIS is good news for both our Armed Forces and British industry."
Lockheed Martin UK Ltd - Integrated Systems is the Prime Contractor for the programme with responsibility as overall systems integrator and programme manager. Under Lockheed Martin UK, Kelvin Hughes Ltd will manufacture the WECDIS hardware, Offshore Systems Ltd will produce the software and Babcock Design and Technology will be involved in the installation design and shipfitting.
Notes to editors
1. Pictures available on request.
2. The 48 ships that will initially receive WECDIS include the Invincible class carriers, HMS Ocean, HMS Albion, Type 22 and Type 23 frigates, Type 42 destroyers, Royal Fleet Auxiliary fleet tankers and replenishment ships, all Royal Navy submarines and a number of specialist ships including survey ships.
3. Of the 75 jobs sustained by the contract award the majority will be within Kelvin Hughes, based in Hainault, Essex.
4. The total contract value is £29 million, of which £10 million is for the design, manufacture and installation of WECDIS and a further £19 million to support its in-service life.
5. Lockheed Martin UK Ltd - Integrated Systems - is based in Havant, Hampshire. Kelvin Hughes Ltd is based in Hainault, Essex and Offshore Systems Ltd. in Vancouver, Canada. Babcock Design and Technology are based in Weymouth and Rosyth.
6. For further information please contact the DPA Press Office:
Rebecca Gledhill (0117) 913 0637, mob (07810) 166238 or Ralph Dunn (0117) 913 0636.
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Keith
Well-Known Member
there may be no mention of paper charts it wouldn't make good press saying that they are carrying them "just in case", any how the point is moot it sounds like the new chart plotters are for ENHANCED sea bed and beach detail as provided by satellite and guys like the SBS, notice its being fitted to the carriers (ASW) assault carriers and subs, my guess this would enable them to overlay things like the old hunter killer charts, on a BA chart when a wreck is marked as PA with the hunter killer overlay the wreck is accurately plotted to feet, after all we don't want to be torpedoing a wreck do we?!!!, nice to see some things don't change though, the MOD is still paying way over the odds for the gear they are buying, some things will never change..............keith
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jimboaw
Well-Known Member
Just like the navy to be years behind the times. We switched to computer based charts 5 years back using a cheap laptop and Maptech/ The Captain software. Just returned to Florida after our second circuit up to Maine and back via Bermuda and this is only my second laptop. We carry a spare which cost us the grand sum of $250 and has all our charts loaded and ready to go. Anybody who has experienced the foggy coast of Maine will admit that electronic is the ONLY way to go!!
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montezuma
Active Member
Is Lord Howe Island going to be on the electronic charts?
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Keith
Well-Known Member
and there you have the problem in a nutshell, the e charts take there information from the good old paper charts , inaccuracies included, then if you zoom in your e chart your already inaccurate chart becomes.........welll you can guess the rest, incidentally Nigel Calder did an excellent article on this very subject, and it is a bit of an eye opener!!!...........keith
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charles_reed
Well-Known Member
An interesting thought
Because the 2 competing electronic chart systems are very much in evidence - raster and vector technologies.
Currently I'd guess that vector (Navionics, C-Map, Garmin) is top-dog in small boat systems with raster (ARCs) being the one being used in commercial electronic charting.
I've got both, but use vector the most, mainly because of its relative greater effectiveness in terms of storage, processing and power terms.
I wouldn't like to guess which will come out on top.
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Because the 2 competing electronic chart systems are very much in evidence - raster and vector technologies.
Currently I'd guess that vector (Navionics, C-Map, Garmin) is top-dog in small boat systems with raster (ARCs) being the one being used in commercial electronic charting.
I've got both, but use vector the most, mainly because of its relative greater effectiveness in terms of storage, processing and power terms.
I wouldn't like to guess which will come out on top.
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oldsalt
Well-Known Member
Re: An interesting thought
Very true, I've tried raster charts (Maptech etc) and don't like them much. I have tried Cmap vector charts and also Garmin charts and they are much easier to use. I suspect vector will win eventually especially as the file sizes are much smaller.
However users need to be aware that the data can be based on very old surveys, and as with paper charts due caution should be excersised.
I ofetn use a RIB at night and a chart plotter is the only way to navigate safely at 25 knots. There is no way that you can use a paper chart!
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Very true, I've tried raster charts (Maptech etc) and don't like them much. I have tried Cmap vector charts and also Garmin charts and they are much easier to use. I suspect vector will win eventually especially as the file sizes are much smaller.
However users need to be aware that the data can be based on very old surveys, and as with paper charts due caution should be excersised.
I ofetn use a RIB at night and a chart plotter is the only way to navigate safely at 25 knots. There is no way that you can use a paper chart!
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clyst
Well-Known Member
How right you are !! I still use DR EPs etc only use a small hand held now and again for comformation I'v got it right . Still have fond memories of pre GPS days .Nowadays boating is governed by money not by ability to learn the art of navigation and seamanship . IMHO of course .
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oldsalt
Well-Known Member
The correct use of electronic charts does not necessarily degrade the art of navigation- it takes it to a new level. Seamanship is still there- weather, tides, pilotage and other traffic still apply. As with any tool it has to be used properly. Would you have been against Harrison's chronometer (to determine longtitude) when it was first introduced? Don't forget that the new fangled chronometer met with very stiff resistance indeed. I'm sure that in view of decreasing prices, that within a few years, electronic charts will be cheaper than paper ones. What is the problem with cost? My sextant, hand bearing compass and paper charts cost a damn site more than my gps, electronic charts and second hand laptop.
Note that even the RYA are changing their teaching syllabi to include electronic navigation- a little late perhaps, but this is the pattern for the future.
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Note that even the RYA are changing their teaching syllabi to include electronic navigation- a little late perhaps, but this is the pattern for the future.
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