Paper charts are dead

No thanks .....

It was only recently I got rid of Kelvin Hughes Sextant - considering it was quite a few years ago that I stood on the bridge and used one - I thought well .... move it on .... it now is on display in my brothers house in United States ......

<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
So WHAT does the EU really stand for ????/forums/images/icons/cool.gif
 
Why do people buy handheld GPS\'s then?

What were highend laptops last year are down in price this year, cos they are now at the low end in techno terms....

As for "and run for weeks on their own power source" it don't seem to stop people buying handheld GPS units + £10 of batteries every time they use them. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

<hr width=100% size=1>David
 
Rechargeable\'s nm.

**

<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
So WHAT does the EU really stand for ????/forums/images/icons/cool.gif
 
UK charts are updated every month.

An update to c-Map cartidge costs £30. So are charts going to be £360 per year?

I would say navigation bouys are now unnecessary because of GPS but electronic charts are uneconomic.

<hr width=100% size=1>Richard
 
There are boats going to sea every season without the correct inventory and the RNLI have to deal with them regularly. All they do is give the good and sensible sailors a bad name.
We know why the RN have the ability to remove paper charts but small vessels need to be totally self sufficient and well prepared for all eventualities.
Keep up with your chart replacements/amendments because there is no chance in the future of this neccessity changing.

Regards.

Peter.

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To Beneteau ......

Considering the number of charts in the Admiralty Folios .... it is actually WEEKLY that updates are out for paper charts - which also provides the foundation info for all electronic versions. Same with all other Hydrographic agency's.

The average yacht is really not going to usually come to much harm with out of date charts or with some that may have a few corrections missing. Note that even the Admiralty in its wisdom has realised that with the lesser frequent Small Craft Chart updates.

So really is the argument solid .... electronic charts are good as the paper date for date .... if you wish to be completely up to date - then it will be expensive, paper and/or electronic .... are you saying that you check the front of all Weekly Notice To Mariners to see if any of your charts are superceded .... do you know when your charts are superceded or cancelled ?



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
So WHAT does the EU really stand for ????/forums/images/icons/cool.gif<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by nigel_luther on 09/01/2004 21:23 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
How many people actually regullary correct their paper charts? I've tried a couple of times, but with a portfolio of over 100 charts its almost impossible and I gave up. I admit to using 1970's charts with no corrections- and I'm sure I'm not alone!

The electronic ones can be corrected almost instantly with one download or CD.

I accept that there is a cost penalty in updating at present, but this will drop as with all things electronic.

Assuming that waterproofness, reliability etc are guaranteed, then an electronic chart plotter is far safer than a paper chart in extreme conditions. Many is the time in the past when I've been hunched over the chart table in a strong wind at night with poor visibility, dripping water onto the paper chart just hoping that my EP was good enough.

It's called progress, how many people still use cotton sails, stokholm tar and no auxillary engine?

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The economy depends on what size of area you what to cruise at what detail.
I would never have afforded the detail I got via c-map charts, buying paper charts.
It may be different if you just stick to one area of moderate size, but if you move on, it's great that you can return the charts and get charts for a new area at update price. Besides the friends that I have that sail in one area and know it very well, hardly look at their charts any more (which sometimes gets them into trouble).
I for my part. I am moving more and more towards the electronic charts, and now I have a variety for each area, from raster scan to vector and some paper and they are all slightly different, but more info is better and if they aren't agreeing you are more alert.
I think it is like with GPS, we don't like to accept the new technology for a while and sailors including myself are more conservative than normal people. Still I feel quite comfortable predicting that 10 years on, most yachts will depend on electronic charting.

For what we are up to in the next years, I have looked at what I would have bought if paper was all there is, and now I buy about 20% of those paper charts, but c-map cartriges for all the areas and the cost is about 50% of what I would have spent with just paper. The 20% paper is a safety and convenience measure.

I also print print some of the details a day or two ahead of getting to a place. Finally I have raster copies, probably dated, that I got from friends. We have a dedicated plotter for c-map and two laptop PCs that can read the c-maps. So all in all I'm much better equipped than we used to be.

Again, I think the economic aspect is already better and improving every day. Much like with GPS where you can buy 10 of them for the price of a good sextant.

All the above is the rational side of me. In my heart sailing is to me an escape from a world in which everything is being taken care of and I'm sad it is getting a bit less of a contrast. I'm certainly missing the feeling of sextant landfalls, but then there are still some challenges left for us and we can't stop the world from moving on...

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.taniwani.de>http://www.taniwani.de</A>
 
True at present, and I always carry paper charts. However the question was when in the future will electronic systems be reliable enough on yachts to replace paper charts?

Aircraft don't use paper. Now the RN are throwing out paper. It's only a matter of time before we do.

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I will refrain from replying with the full force of my feelings on this entirely bogus and completely barking post. The RN have still got paper charts on board - and will continue to have them for some time yet. Why do people believe what they read in the papers!!

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Re: To Beneteau ......

I mainly use Stanfords C3 chart - East Coast, Gt Yarmouth to Harwich. Its been updated 2003 Feb, Mar, April, May, July, July again, Dec and Jan 2004.
I go on line and download the updates regularly which are free. I can add them to my chart easily but I cannot update the c_map module.
Dec 2003 added Wind farm - Works in progress which actually means about 20 huge columns pilled into the seabed and projecting above sea level by about 6 metres 2 miles offshore.
I think it might be wise to keep up to date.

<hr width=100% size=1>Richard
 
I take objection to your tone. I was reporting what was said in the Times, there is nothing bogus about the thread. Even if the Times article was wrong, surely it's only a matter of time before paper is replaced. Maybe many years away, but its coming.

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In fact it is here already. The following from IMO -

"IMO's Maritime Safety Committee (MSC), at its 73rd session from 27 November to 6 December 2000 adopted a revised Chapter V (Safety of Navigation) of SOLAS which enters into force on 1 July 2002.

Regulation 19 of the new Chapter V - Carriage requirements for shipborne navigational systems and equipment allows an electronic chart display and information system (ECDIS) to be accepted as meeting the chart carriage requirements of the regulation.

The regulation requires all ships, irrespective of size, to carry nautical charts and nautical publications to plan and display the ship's route for the intended voyage and to plot and monitor positions throughout the voyage. But the ship must also carry back up arrangements if electronic charts are used either fully or partially."

My understanding is that the back up arrangements can be a duplicate electronic system. These requirements can be modified by the nation or the flag.

With respect to naval vessels I have to say that I am not privy to what they carry. However, I would be genuinely surprised if they carried full sets of duplicate paper charts when modern electronic systems exist on board. Perhaps someone has first hand experience?

John

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Absolutes

Are always self-defeating.

Paper charts are very useful for passage planning, but sit uneasily with GPS.

Electronic charts have the advantage of allowing chart and GPS to interact in a far more efficient manner.
Commercial shipping has long since converted to electronic charting and the RN is conservatively following the trend.

However, just as books and newspapers haven't disappeared, I doubt that paper charts will.
For my money the greatest benefit of electronic charting is the lack of space it takes up - I'd hate to try and store 480 charts on my boat, which is what I'd need if I tried to push time back to all paper charting.


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Frankly, I think that the standard of RN navigation has fallen since the BBC stopped running those weekly navigational course on the radio at Sunday lunchtimes. A weekly refresher was always useful, and Jon Pertwee and Kenneth Williams had the knack of making a complicated subject sound straightforward. I never did get to do the astro bit though.


<hr width=100% size=1>Rgds
Phil
 
Don't give up making chart updates if you come to the Thames Estuary, mate. If it's not the blinking sandbanks moving it's the bouys moving. Sometimes we're reduced to asking each other 'how much water was there when you passed over the Sunk?' Of course, I use the plotter too, but I like the belt and braces approach.

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