Panope and Rocna

[Neeves]

I thought this merited its own thread.

I am no fan of Rocna, I think roll bars unnecessary, the bendy shank saga colours my judgement (which I try to suppress), I did some work to illustrate the anchor clogging issue and I think it is over priced.

BUT

I accept that most people are happy with roll bars, most either don't know or don't care about the bendy shank saga and clogging is an issue if it happens to you - but it appears to be a very rare occurrence where it causes serious issues.

So - in defense of Rocna

Panope in a recent video made comments that it was imperfectly made and the front 'half' off the fluke was not plane with the rear half. This cause the fluke to clog unevenly - presumably with impact on the performance of the anchor.

My understanding is that the fluke of the Rocna is cast in one piece. There is no joint, weld, between the toe, the ballasted section, and the rear of the fluke. If there is a weld line and the anchor is not plane either they have changed the production technique, very possible OR its an old anchor - no longer made and the lack of symmetry is an issue with NZ anchors or those made in the very early days in China before they started to cast flukes.

The original design was a fluke made in, I think, 2 parts. The toe was a double thickness of steel (to give it the ballast) and this double thinckness toe was then welded to the rear half of the fluke. There is an upturn at the heel and this was produced by bending, folding the final rear section and then having a small weld in the rear centre. When they moved production to China, specifically Shanghai, they used investment casting and incorporated the word Rocna in the upturn at the heel and each size of anchor had the weight embossed in the casting. They then moved the production to Ningbo, when CMP took the reins - and my understanding was that they continued to cast the fluke. I have not been made aware that they have ceased casting the fluke - it is possible they have stopped casting - in which case this thread is a bit of a waste of time.

I don't have a chandler nearby to check what is the current stock.

However if they continue to use investment casting for the fluke then every anchor of that size will have the identical problem - the problem might not, should not be available with other sizes - as they all use a different sized mould - or less likely - every mould is identically flawed.

If as seems possible the anchor Panope tested is an old one then all the recent anchors, basically since Rocna moved to China will not have the fault.

You cannot miss the difference in the cast and fabricated fluke - the embossed word Rocna on the upturn at the heel is the giveaway. I was given one of the Shanghai models, with the bendy shank (the one I used to test shank strength). It has a cast fluke - there is no joint between toe and heel, in fac t the fluke is cast as one piece and the boll bar and Shank simply welded on top. The upper surface of the fluke plate is smooth apart from the upturn at the heel.

If Rocna have changed production - Panope should have made all of this clear. The impression he leaves is that the production is 'slack' - it might be - but they might be being damned unfairly AND I might be unfairly critical of Panope - for which I apologise in advance.

I appreciate some will say this is carping - I just don't accept what I am told and question - if I'm correct I will feel some vindication


If you have a chandler near you - it would be a service to the community - are the flukes welded at the junction of the thicker toe area and the thinner heel section (you will feel the weld as a slight imperfection) or is it one piece?


If Panope has been testing an old model, made in NZ, then his comments lack any credibility - and illustrate an unacceptable power of the specific thread (which simply emphasises why I am uncomfortable with the lack of peer review (before publication) and maybe..........?

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

edit

I mention my bias against Rocna (and how I try to suppress same). I try to be fair - I might lack some success, I am human. I have been accused of carping about Steve aka Panope. I'm trying to be fair conscious that Steve is going to test one of my designs (copied by some - and for which I enjoy neither credit nor income) and I'm obviously keen on a favourable review (it makes me feel better - I am human). So my carping might work against me if Steve were to feel slighted - trying to be fair takes precedence. I do know he received a free sample of the device, he told me.

close edit

 

[Star-Lord]

I have used 20kg and 25kg Rocna for a few years. 25kg Rocna set the best of all anchors ever! It was like an emergency stop in a car or motorbike. So felt very secure. However... on each anchor (so twice) after being at anchor for a number of weeks in the same spot (Guadiana and Portimao) when I weighed anchor I found the chain had wrapped around the hoop considerably. This happened twice on two separate occasions - once in a river and once in a bay - so both spots you will be doing 360 degree spins twice a day. So twice I had to faff around unwrapping chain from the anchor before it could be stowed. I was lucky and it all worked out without any mishap. It is possible on both occasions I fouled the chain myself when setting the anchor by dumping too much chain on top! Very probable!! It should be noted that I never dragged (except from when a Spanish boat lifted my anchor when they were leaving etc etc). So basically wether it was my bad anchoring technique or wether it is Rocna design flaw is irrelevant imho. I changed anchors and bought a 30kg (they are smaller in size) Spade and have been well looked after ever since including 50kn plus winds. Spade is pretty idiot proof... I have tried fouling the anchor by dumping chain on top... (in crystal clear warm blue warm Sardinian waters) and it always sets perfectly - however - not quite as easy as the 25kg Rocna! You need a bit more scope like 4-1 at least before setting (reversing slowly then upping revs higher). In a tight spot I will set at 5-1 then bring the scope into 3-1 once set. If you can't get your head around the Spade design I think the Kobra could be the one for you.

 

[Neeves]

If you shallow set, because you don't power set or because you have an overly large anchor then the heel of the anchor can sit proud of the seabed (with the toe and some shank firmly embedded). If you have a big Fortress even if you power set you can have the stock, or one end of the stock protruding. In a change of tide the chain can get under the protruding stock, or heel of the anchor. If you look at many anchors they have a skid, under the fluke, perfect to help retain the chain under the heel.

Of course those who encourage use of big anchors don't think of any of this.

But if you have the chain under the heel, or stock, due to a change of tide or wind - you have the perfect recipe to trip your own anchor.

Star Lord's experience and my observation are not much mentioned - but happen.

Jonathan

I have used 20kg and 25kg Rocna for a few years. 25kg Rocna set the best of all anchors ever! It was like an emergency stop in a car or motorbike. So felt very secure. However... on each anchor (so twice) after being at anchor for a number of weeks in the same spot (Guadiana and Portimao) when I weighed anchor I found the chain had wrapped around the hoop considerably. This happened twice on two separate occasions - once in a river and once in a bay - so both spots you will be doing 360 degree spins twice a day. So twice I had to faff around unwrapping chain from the anchor before it could be stowed. I was lucky and it all worked out without any mishap. It is possible on both occasions I fouled the chain myself when setting the anchor by dumping too much chain on top! Very probable!! It should be noted that I never dragged (except from when a Spanish boat lifted my anchor when they were leaving etc etc). So basically wether it was my bad anchoring technique or wether it is Rocna design flaw is irrelevant imho. I changed anchors and bought a 30kg (they are smaller in size) Spade and have been well looked after ever since including 50kn plus winds. Spade is pretty idiot proof... I have tried fouling the anchor by dumping chain on top... (in crystal clear warm blue warm Sardinian waters) and it always sets perfectly - however - not quite as easy as the 25kg Rocna! You need a bit more scope like 4-1 at least before setting (reversing slowly then upping revs higher). In a tight spot I will set at 5-1 then bring the scope into 3-1 once set. If you can't get your head around the Spade design I think the Kobra could be the one for you.

I think most accept that Spade is a good anchor - sadly most have inelastic wallets and its the price that scares them off - and Kobra answers that issue

 

[sailaboutvic]

Star load as I sure you know we spend most of our time at anchor and although we had a few misshapen with our Rocna like a shopping trolley, a net and another time a old anchor , we not had any problems.
To be honesty if someone failed his own anchor by not anchoring properly you can't really blame the anchor what ever make it is .

 

[Star-Lord]

Star load as I sure you know we spend most of our time at anchor and although we had a few misshapen with our Rocna like a shopping trolley, a net and another time a old anchor , we not had any problems.
To be honesty if someone failed his own anchor by not anchoring properly you can't really blame the anchor what ever make it is .

The hoop on the Rocna is a proven weak point. It is very possible I did not anchor correctly and it is entirely possible the chain wrapped around the hoop - not the hoop and heel just the hoop - by changing currents. The fact remains The Rocna can be set with a fouled chain and the chain can foul the anchor. Using a Spade or Kobra and you will never have these problems. Morgans Cloud do not recommend Rocna - they have issued a warning against using them. Rocna are not the best - you do not need the best - Skip Novak used a CQR in his ‘How To Anchor In Storms‘ video. Panope tests (best tests and data to date imo) and recommended Spade or Kobra. Morgans Cloud also recommend Spade.

 

[Neeves]

The hoop on the Rocna is a proven weak point. It is very possible I did not anchor correctly and it is entirely possible the chain wrapped around the hoop - not the hoop and heel just the hoop - by changing currents. The fact remains The Rocna can be set with a fouled chain and the chain can foul the anchor. Using a Spade or Kobra and you will never have these problems. Morgans Cloud do not recommend Rocna - they have issued a warning against using them. Rocna are not the best - you do not need the best - Skip Novak used a CQR in his how to anchor in storms video. Panope tested (best tests and data to date imo) and recommended Spade or Kobra. Morgans Cloud also recommend Spade.

I may have misunderstood your post(s)

I had actually assumed you meant that you had a warp round the roll bar. Maybe you meant you had a wrap round the shank and the chain wrapped round the crown, so some of the chain lay between shank and roll bar. I did the same once with a SARCA. I dropped the anchor and dropped a pile of chain. The anchor did not set. When I retrieved it the chain was neatly round the shank and roll bar - if I tried to do it - it would have been difficult - but it was very neat, quite an eye opener.

But it does not matter - if your chain wrapped round anything the anchor would not work as intended and highlighting the issue is what the Forum is for.

It is interesting - Morgans Cloud/AAC removed their recommendation for Rocna. I did some work on fluke clogging in Practical Sailor but I extended the issue to cover Supreme as well as Rocna. Steve/Panope has now repeated the testing and come to the exact same conclusion. People rave over the educational benefits of the Panope videos, people are keen supporters of AAC, they contribute to AAC, and recommend others to do the same.

The in water Panope video is all about veering in some form or other (he does set in a cobblestones as well). If you strip our veering and somersaulting in a 180 degree turn - there is nothing left. I asked recently how many had suffered from a 180 degree turn (no-one put their hand up). It appears failure from veering or a 180 degree turn is simply not a common issue. Its a disaster if it happens with a Rocna (or Supreme) as your yacht can end up on a beach - but it seems it does not happen. The issues are so far outside experience people don't worry.

There are many Rocna owners inhabiting this site, some are long term cruisers (if that makes any difference). If there was a real issue with clogging - we would have heard, by now (the anchor has been easily available for well over 10 years). Interestingly I recall posts from Rocna owners who suggested that when they retrieved a clod of seabed in the fluke was indicative of how well the anchor was set. The idea that the difficulty of washing this clod off, with a deck wash, was never extrapolated to the difficulty that might occur if the anchor let go in a veer, somersault, and the impact this clod might have on re-setting.

Skip Novak did use a CQR in his videos on storm anchoring but I believe since then replaced his CQR with a ....... Rocna.

BUT

No-one takes a blind bit of notice to the comments of clogging of Rocna (and Supreme) - even though there are alternatives, (at some cost) Spade, and Kobra (which is noticeably competitive).

I have to accept that my tests were a bit of a waste of time (and a lot of effort) - the market place has spoken.

What people want is information on how well and quickly an anchor sets and then hold reliably (nothing more) - I think preferably in clean sand. This information is not particularly forefront in the Panope vids nor spreadsheet. One weakness of the spreadsheets, which most people are going to look at rather than 110 vids of 30 minutes each, is that the 'in water' tests are very niche, the subjective assessment (engineering, galvanising, price (how valid is price information derived by someone in Seattle to someone in Manchester, UK) are actually a larger part of the scores - but setting distance and reliability of setting is not in the spread sheet at all.

Epsilon thus is hammered - it does not do so well in these niche tests (that Rocna owners are happy to ignore) and the comments on ease and reliability of setting is ambivalent and there is no absolute hold data. Epsilon comes out badly - but we actually have not learn anything about the requirements expressed on these threads. I reserve judgement - and suggest as you suggest, in the meantime buy a Spade or Kobra, or be patient.

Jonathan

You can take a horse to water.......

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[Star-Lord]

the chain on both occasions had wrapped around the hoop only so a real tangle

 

[sailaboutvic]

The hoop on the Rocna is a proven weak point. It is very possible I did not anchor correctly and it is entirely possible the chain wrapped around the hoop - not the hoop and heel just the hoop - by changing currents. The fact remains The Rocna can be set with a fouled chain and the chain can foul the anchor. Using a Spade or Kobra and you will never have these problems. Morgans Cloud do not recommend Rocna - they have issued a warning against using them. Rocna are not the best - you do not need the best - Skip Novak used a CQR in his ‘How To Anchor In Storms‘ video. Panope tests (best tests and data to date imo) and recommended Spade or Kobra. Morgans Cloud also recommend Spade.

Its good to see some willing to hold his hands up and say , its possible he didn't anchor correctly . That's happen to most of us at some point in our life time anchoring .
I disagree the hoop is proven to be a weak spot, yes it possible to get a rock caught in it .
In my book anyway it doesn't stop it for bing a very good anchor that set well and hold well.
I think if the hoop was a problem we would read about it.

 

[Star-Lord]

Thanks to this forum I learned that one should SET the anchor!! So before I knew what a chain stopper or a snubber was I had purchased and fitted a Rocna. And Rocna never let me down (in that it kept my boat in roughly the spot I had anchored in). Even on the two occasions I weighed anchor to find a tangle the boat had not dragged. So yes the Rocna is very good because it set itself without being properly set on a few occasions. If I bought a boat with a Rocna already fitted that would be a gift horse. If I wanted to replace the Delta or Danforth already on the bow roller and there was a second-hand Rocna in the chandlery I would buy it.

 

[thinwater]

...I disagree the hoop is proven to be a weak spot, yes it possible to get a rock caught in it .
In my book anyway it doesn't stop it for bing a very good anchor that set well and hold well.
I think if the hoop was a problem we would read about it.

I have clogged the roll bars on Rocna, Manson, and Mantus anchors with sticks, weeds, and debris on numerous occasions. Several times this prevented proper setting (they caught but did not hold well. Many times I recovered badly fouled anchors that did not drag only because the weather was not strong. I have bent the roll bar on a Mantus.

Non-roll bar anchors that I have used, including Delta, Excel, and Spade are not subject to this to nearly the same extent, though debris can still wrap around the shank.

Now you've read about it.

---

The extent of the problem depends on the nature of the bottom where you anchor. If it does not include sticky mud and debris, then I would not expect it to be a problem. But remember that not all problems are reported on forums. I certainly don't report every anchor failure. None of these failures cause me to drag, in some cases because the weather was light and I was sure it would stay that way. Sometimes I set two anchors. Many times it did not feel right during power setting. Some were probably dumb luck.