Pan pan pan - help needed

[BuzzFan]

tamar mooring

Hi, bad luck. I had to leave my moody down there for 2 months, got an incredibly generous deal from the saltash sailing club - c £ 50.00 for the 2 months. They let me use one of their temp available trots bang opposite the pub under the brunel bridge - cant recall its name, but the entire side is painted in union jack, so not hard to miss! I suggest you call the sailing club commodore or secretary & throw yourself on their mercy! Its not far to get another friendly member to tow you if you can't sail due to wind/tide.

As another idea, I later wintered in a tiny boatyard right at the top of st germains, or the next door tributary, about £ 200 for 6 months. Had to go up river on very highest springs.

Re engines, when my moody's volvo 28 started failing on low compression due to "glazed bores", we took the entire engine out, put it in back of an estate car, and had the bores rehoned with larger rings at a lorry engine recondioning firm near oxford - total cost £ 350.00 + removal/fitting labour which was a few tenners fir use of crane, and much diy. I thoroughly recommend doing as much of the donkey work yourself, not just to save cost, but a) to gain knowledge andb b) to satisfy yourself what is really wrong with the engine.

So don't despair - hope the dream works out.

 

[sea]

ok thanks guys, i am taking it all on board, i propose stripping down the engine starting with the fuel system in the morning. I have paid the fee's in this place untill thursday, these are my waters and unfortunatly there is nowhere else suitable i can go without having to go back on land, something i dont want to do. i know i can get it going, just keep all that valuable info coming. I really appreciate all of your help. Gives me faith in people again! I will keep you posted and start a photo diary of what is going on if you think it would help everyone to see whats what??

 

[gordmac]

Not familiar with your engine but I used to have a boat with a BMC 1.8 diesel. This engine was a nightmare to bleed, took ages. Bleed the filter and pump with the lift pump primer then bleed by cracking the injector pipes individually (at the injector rather than the pump) as the engine is spun on the starter. Swear a lot then repeat. In my experience the engine wasn't keen to start unless the engine spun quickly so if the battery is a bit low you may struggle (boat electrics don't take kindly to lack of use). Use a blowtorch to heat the air going into the engine rather than rely on the glow plugs.
If you are getting fuel reliably when the injector pipes are cracked then you should be getting fuel. If so you do need to get the engine spinning quickly, use a fully charged battery connected directly to the starter and engine with good quality jump leads and heat the intake air with a blowtorch, very surprised if it wouldn't start!

 

[misterg]

ok thanks guys, i am taking it all on board, i propose stripping down the engine starting with the fuel system in the morning.

i know i can get it going,

You'll be very lucky if you manage that by dismantling it at random

FFS the engine started & ran. You ran it out of diesel, and now it won't start. It's 99.9% certain an air-lock problem. Have you bled at ALL the bleed screws? Do you know where they all are? Bleed 'em all again, and take half a pint of clean (air free) diesel out of each one, tightening it up while there's still diesel flowing out. Check that there's not two (or more) bleed screws on the injector pump, and find out what order they need to be bled in. You've been recommended a local engineer be several people, why not ask his advice? Worst case, you might have a duff injector pump which can be taken off and tested by a diesel specialist for a nominal fee, but you may need to take it off in a way that preserves the timing - if you don't know how, you could just be digging yourself a deeper hole. I don't know this engine especially - do you have a workshop manual for it? You'd still need to know how to bleed it all properly if the pump was replaced.

If you do a compression test it'll probably come back that the compression is low. It will be, it's an old engine! If it starts OK, then the compression is adequate, and isn't your immediate problem. Likewise, if you took the head off, it's certain that it would look better for a de-coke and lapping the valves, but what's there was working. If you did all that, you'd still have to solve the fuel problem.

Sorry if I sound like I've got a sore head, it's because I have. A locker lid fell on it



Andy

 

[30boat]

Listen to Misterg.Very god advice.Don't start taking things to bits.I'll be very surprised if it is anything more than a small fuel issue.

 

[sea]

im no mechanic but i know how to bleed an engine and i have done twice with no avail, i am going to strip the fuel system (something within my skills) and try to find the issue, something stopping the pressure, compression wise its ok, number 4 is slightly down but nothing major. Thanks for reminding me, those of you who have recommended certain engineers and have warned me about others thanks very very much, one of you has mentioned to steer clear of the engineer i am using at the moment, a peice of valuable information to say the least! thanks Ioata!

 

[misterg]

im no mechanic but i know how to bleed an engine....

Even a mechanic needs to know the right sequence - for example the sequence for the Thornycroft 108 is below. Note that there are three bleed screws on the injector pump, two of which must be bled simultaneously whilst also operating the throttle, and that bleeding the HP side requires two injector pipes to be 'cracked' at the same time. My humblest apologies if you already knew this, but I would never have guessed this sequence.

BLEEDING THE FUEL SYSTEM

Note: After renewing the
fuel filter element it will only be necessary to bleed the fuel filter as
described in 1 and 2, provided that the engine has not been cranked while the
filter is dismantled.
1 Slacken the blanking plug in the unused outlet connection in the fuel
filter head Fig. 12. Operate the lift pump Fig. 9 (page 5) until the fuel
flowing from the plug is free of air bubbles, tighten the plug. NB. Numbers
2-6 refer to Fig. 11 bleed points.
2 Slacken the union nut at the injection pump end of the fuel feed pipe.
Operate the lift pump and when the fuel flowing from the union is free
from air bubbles, tighten the nut.
3 Slacken the air bleed screw on the injection pump body. Operate the lift pump
and, when the fuel flowing from the bleed screw is free from bubbles, tighten the screw.
4 Slacken the air bleed screw on the injection pump governor housing.
Operate the lift pump until the fuel flowing from the bleed screw is free
from air bubbles, leave the bleed screw slack.
5 Slacken the air bleed screw on the injection pump high pressure banjo bolt.
Operate the starter motor while operating the throttle control and, when the
fuel flowing from the high pressure bleed screw is free of air bubbles,
tighten the bleed screw.
6 Continue cranking the engine with the starter motor to expel any air
trapped in the governor and, when the fuel flowing from the governor
housing bleed screw is free of air bubbles, tighten the screw.
Slacken the unions at the injector ends of any two high pressure pipes. Fig.
13. Ensure that the stop control is in the run position and the engine
speed control is in the fully open position. Crank the engine until the fuel
comibng from both pipes is free from air bubbles, then tighten the unions. NB. After initial
start procedure has been observed start the engine and allow it to idle until it is
running evenly on all four cylinders.


This, and more in this pdf file (found via google).

Andy

 

[colvic987]

Hi, before you try and get this engine bleed again.

sit down get a cup of coffee and relax

and watch this..

posted on scuttlebutt earlier but i could'nt get the entire post copied, from twister ken..


chill out, and get in the right frame of mind, i know just how frustrating it can be trying to get a engine running, have been reading misterg thread, and try and follow what he says, just don't move or take the injector pump off as, once the timing is moved it would be very hard to get it started without major readjustments... this seems a matter of fuel starvation...

Have a laugh at this, then try again, good luck...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY1YndLmbXQ

 

[Gunfleet]

bleeding hell

I would get a London taxi driver to bleed it for you. BMC 1.8 diesel is what they used in cabs before they moved on to the 2.2. My Dad was a cabby and every time someone pulls into a marina near to me with a BMC engine I can recognise the sound.

 

[pandos]

Even a mechanic needs to know the right sequence

Agree,

Have watched mechanics( experts) trying to bleed my engine ( when I was buying the boat) and after flattening 2 batteries and going for lunch I succeeded in ten minutes with the third battery,

Check out the vent to the fuel tank, possibly a vacum being created, listen out for a rush of air as you open the filler cap,

try bleeding and running with the filler cap off.

Certainly would try the temporary high level fuel tank before taking anything off he engine.

Best of luck.

 

[Resolution]

Colvic - Absolutely wonderful. After all the techno replies this was a breath of fresh air (or is it a squirt of clean fuel??).

 

[oceanpilgrim]

water?

hi i had a simular problem some time ago,the boat was left standing for a long while,it started after a long cranking session,ran for a while then fadded away and stoped and would not re-start,
it turned out it had water condenced in side the tank the water had got as far as the injectors and could not pass,he took out the injectors and taped them upside down on a piece of tisue paper till the paper was clean,then refited and rebleed the system started firs time after and since,the fillters where changed but no sign of water in them ?hope this is of help,good luck

 

[emnick]

Water??

Perhaps there is a clue here, you say that you filled your water tank could you have mixed them up? I have actually done this so it can happen.
Just a thought Hope you get going and live the dream
Good luck

 

[30boat]

Perhaps there is a clue here, you say that you filled your water tank could you have mixed them up? I have actually done this so it can happen.
Just a thought Hope you get going and live the dream
Good luck

I'm not ashamed to say that I once ruined a water tank when I filled it with diesel.I was lucky that day,it could have been the other way around.

 

[Cap'n Creosote]

A few years ago I was on a friends yacht which suffered a similar problem.
The engine just faded and died and despite many attempts to bleed the system, it refused to restart.
The next day we discovered the tank was full of PETROL!

 

[mickywillis]

I know its generally frowned upon to get engines going, but would a quick squirt of "QuikStart" at least prove all is well with the engine and it will at least run on a prime? A bit cheaper than £2K to get an engine going!!

 

[lenseman]

Just a thought Jim, if the boat has been laid up ashore for some time, if the diesel tanks were empty or partially empty then condensation over a period of time could have condensed and collected inside the diesel supply tank, this could have fallen down into the tank and collected at the bottom due to vibration and when you put to sea this water then slowly worked its way into and through the filters, into the lift pump and then via the compressor to the injectors where it caused your engine to fail at Kingsand/Cawsand, a sailing area I know well.

This is what has probably happened and the only cure is a complete wash through with a fresh supply of diesel from tank to injectors.

A test which you should conduct is as follows:

Using a clear glass (pyrex) beaker or jar, before you start your repairs or inspection, collect a good sample of the diesel that was in the system when the engine failed. Let it stand for about half and hour or more and look very, very carefully at the bottom of the glass. You are looking for very small amounts of water. The larger the sample you collect, the better the test as more water in suspension might 'fall out' of the collected diesel and be visible in the bottom of the glass.

Best of luck.

 

[Csail]

T90

Is there any water in the oil? We had the problem when we loaded our Colvic up for summer cruise which with the extra weight caused the engine cooling to syphon back. We ended up with a new engine now fitted with bigger swan neck and anti syphon valve.

 

[macnorton]

Even a mechanic needs to know the right sequence - for example the sequence for the Thornycroft 108 is below. Note that there are three bleed screws on the injector pump, two of which must be bled simultaneously whilst also operating the throttle, and that bleeding the HP side requires two injector pipes to be 'cracked' at the same time. My humblest apologies if you already knew this, but I would never have guessed this sequence.

BLEEDING THE FUEL SYSTEM

Note: After renewing the
fuel filter element it will only be necessary to bleed the fuel filter as
described in 1 and 2, provided that the engine has not been cranked while the
filter is dismantled.
1 Slacken the blanking plug in the unused outlet connection in the fuel
filter head Fig. 12. Operate the lift pump Fig. 9 (page 5) until the fuel
flowing from the plug is free of air bubbles, tighten the plug. NB. Numbers
2-6 refer to Fig. 11 bleed points.
2 Slacken the union nut at the injection pump end of the fuel feed pipe.
Operate the lift pump and when the fuel flowing from the union is free
from air bubbles, tighten the nut.
3 Slacken the air bleed screw on the injection pump body. Operate the lift pump
and, when the fuel flowing from the bleed screw is free from bubbles, tighten the screw.
4 Slacken the air bleed screw on the injection pump governor housing.
Operate the lift pump until the fuel flowing from the bleed screw is free
from air bubbles, leave the bleed screw slack.
5 Slacken the air bleed screw on the injection pump high pressure banjo bolt.
Operate the starter motor while operating the throttle control and, when the
fuel flowing from the high pressure bleed screw is free of air bubbles,
tighten the bleed screw.
6 Continue cranking the engine with the starter motor to expel any air
trapped in the governor and, when the fuel flowing from the governor
housing bleed screw is free of air bubbles, tighten the screw.
Slacken the unions at the injector ends of any two high pressure pipes. Fig.
13. Ensure that the stop control is in the run position and the engine
speed control is in the fully open position. Crank the engine until the fuel
comibng from both pipes is free from air bubbles, then tighten the unions. NB. After initial
start procedure has been observed start the engine and allow it to idle until it is
running evenly on all four cylinders.


This, and more in this pdf file (found via google).

Andy

Good advice, these engines are a pig to bleed. i would not strip the fuel system but follow the advice given.

 

[KenMcCulloch]

Just a thought Jim, if the boat has been laid up ashore for some time, if the diesel tanks were empty or partially empty then condensation over a period of time could have condensed and collected inside the diesel supply tank

That is pretty much what had happened when I took over my current boat, she had been laid up ashore for 18 months. The water/diesel interface in the tank had bred a substantial crop of bacterial slime which completely choked the supply pipe from the tank to the primary filter after about 15 hours running. Wouldn't be a surprise if that was part of your problem.
Good luck.