PeteCooper
Well-Known Member
Yes, I'd definitely agree with that. A rebuilt engine should be better than one straight off the production line, if done properly.
Pan pan pan - help needed
- Thread starter sea
- Start date
Yes, I'd definitely agree with that. A rebuilt engine should be better than one straight off the production line, if done properly.
Gordonmc
Well-Known Member
I agree with those who suggest getting a second opinion on the repairability of the engine. When I bought my present boat I investigated re-engining out of curiosity and the resident engioneer at the marina pointed me in the direction of a new Yanmar. The Thorneycroft T90 was dismissed as worthy only as a anchor.
That was six years ago and the T90 is still going strong.
These engines are as agricultural as you want. There are hundreds of them in canal barges and yachts. Even if your engine is completely knacked a T90 recon won't bust the bank and will spare the cost of re-built bearers new coupling, driveshaft, stuffing box, prop etc. etc.
Lt us know where you are. There may be local knowlege about engineers who would give impartial advice.
That was six years ago and the T90 is still going strong.
These engines are as agricultural as you want. There are hundreds of them in canal barges and yachts. Even if your engine is completely knacked a T90 recon won't bust the bank and will spare the cost of re-built bearers new coupling, driveshaft, stuffing box, prop etc. etc.
Lt us know where you are. There may be local knowlege about engineers who would give impartial advice.
Conachair
Guest
Fix on the way
Well agree with the gist of that but disagree with the doom merchants about not leaving til the boats sorted. Much better imho to get out where time is more avaialable and get practice fixing the boat abroad, at least it´s warmer, cheaper and the food is much nicer. And that is where you need experiance, cos that is the only boating certainty, it´s going to break probably in the back of beyond and you´ll have no choice but to fix it. In the muddy river in Brazil where i am at the mo i know of at least 5 boats which were towed in engineless, all having edthe Atlantic either from north or south africa.
Well agree with the gist of that but disagree with the doom merchants about not leaving til the boats sorted. Much better imho to get out where time is more avaialable and get practice fixing the boat abroad, at least it´s warmer, cheaper and the food is much nicer. And that is where you need experiance, cos that is the only boating certainty, it´s going to break probably in the back of beyond and you´ll have no choice but to fix it. In the muddy river in Brazil where i am at the mo i know of at least 5 boats which were towed in engineless, all having edthe Atlantic either from north or south africa.
30boat
N/A
This discussion is academic until we know what went wrong with the engine ,so I'll wait until some information is available.
sea
Well-Known Member
WOW firstly may i appologise for my delay in reply, i was expecting ybw to inform me my first post had been aproved.
Thanks to you all for taking the time to give me your advice on the matter. I am not going to get into the politics of pomposity or whatnot here as you can be as pompus as you like but you can still help me with some good advice. Certain posts i will just choose to ignor but thanks so much to those with positive advice. This is the story so far (might be worth putting the kettle on!)
Myself and my partner sold everything and bought a Colvic UFO 34, the boat was sold as all in working order and through a broker. We viewed the boat on land and only have a structural survey for it, engine not included. The previous owners i know are good and honest people, they loved the boat very much and were sad to see it go, they tell me they have never ever had engine failure in 12 years of owning it. They also said they would never dream of replacing the engine.
The boat was dropped into the water, the sea cocks are all ok, engine took a while to start going but to be expected after being on land for 14 months, i had new diesel put into the tank, and was shown the invoice for the laying up service, so no reason in my mind to believe it would be the engine that let us down. We let her warm up whilst filling the water tanks etc and set off, within 5 mins of her being in gear she died, and in my mind it was fuel starvation. Luckily we had an outgoing tide by this point so i put up the main and headed for Cawsand bay to put her on anchor and try to sort out the issues. Unfortunatly just after leaving the river tamar we lost all wind and were totally deadship, i dropped the anchor to its max length and put in a pan call to the coatguard.
Plymouth Lifeboat (amazing people) recovered us into a marina in Plymouth, and its not a cheap one. Upon looking at the engine this is what has happened.
I noticed a hidden fuel shut off which was 1/4 closed, this would account for fuel starvation when the engine was given revs, so i opened it and started to bleed the system, pumping the fuel with the hand pump and then releasing the pipe to the injectors and turning it over untill started pumping, still nothing would get her firing.
I call in the engineer who fully bleeds and primes the engine, he notices nuts rounded off on the fuel pump (not by me) which makes that impossible to work on, he also says its taking on air in at least 1 place and it has a diesel leak. This engine is not in an easy place to work on either. this whole thing has cost me over £350 in berthing and engineer fee's and i am still stuck.
I have gone as far as i can and no i am not a diesel marine engineer unfortunatly but i am mechanically minded, but im stumped. Does this give any of you guys any ideas as to what the issue might be?
I can see from what you are saying i have a good boat and a good motor by reputation. If that is the general feeling then should i find someone who doesnt charge sky high and get them to overhaul it? Am i missing something simple?
Any advice would be great, thanks in advance, first one to solve it gets ummm... im sure i can think of something.!
Thanks to you all for taking the time to give me your advice on the matter. I am not going to get into the politics of pomposity or whatnot here as you can be as pompus as you like but you can still help me with some good advice. Certain posts i will just choose to ignor but thanks so much to those with positive advice. This is the story so far (might be worth putting the kettle on!)
Myself and my partner sold everything and bought a Colvic UFO 34, the boat was sold as all in working order and through a broker. We viewed the boat on land and only have a structural survey for it, engine not included. The previous owners i know are good and honest people, they loved the boat very much and were sad to see it go, they tell me they have never ever had engine failure in 12 years of owning it. They also said they would never dream of replacing the engine.
The boat was dropped into the water, the sea cocks are all ok, engine took a while to start going but to be expected after being on land for 14 months, i had new diesel put into the tank, and was shown the invoice for the laying up service, so no reason in my mind to believe it would be the engine that let us down. We let her warm up whilst filling the water tanks etc and set off, within 5 mins of her being in gear she died, and in my mind it was fuel starvation. Luckily we had an outgoing tide by this point so i put up the main and headed for Cawsand bay to put her on anchor and try to sort out the issues. Unfortunatly just after leaving the river tamar we lost all wind and were totally deadship, i dropped the anchor to its max length and put in a pan call to the coatguard.
Plymouth Lifeboat (amazing people) recovered us into a marina in Plymouth, and its not a cheap one. Upon looking at the engine this is what has happened.
I noticed a hidden fuel shut off which was 1/4 closed, this would account for fuel starvation when the engine was given revs, so i opened it and started to bleed the system, pumping the fuel with the hand pump and then releasing the pipe to the injectors and turning it over untill started pumping, still nothing would get her firing.
I call in the engineer who fully bleeds and primes the engine, he notices nuts rounded off on the fuel pump (not by me) which makes that impossible to work on, he also says its taking on air in at least 1 place and it has a diesel leak. This engine is not in an easy place to work on either. this whole thing has cost me over £350 in berthing and engineer fee's and i am still stuck.
I have gone as far as i can and no i am not a diesel marine engineer unfortunatly but i am mechanically minded, but im stumped. Does this give any of you guys any ideas as to what the issue might be?
I can see from what you are saying i have a good boat and a good motor by reputation. If that is the general feeling then should i find someone who doesnt charge sky high and get them to overhaul it? Am i missing something simple?
Any advice would be great, thanks in advance, first one to solve it gets ummm... im sure i can think of something.!
lenseman
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 3 Jun 2006
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- 7,077
- Location
- South East Coast - United Kingdom
Hello again [sea] Firstly, the fact that the nuts are rounded off tell me that someone, not very mechanically minded had worked on the engine in the past. This might have been recently or some little while ago. The fact that they are rounded is no problem as nuts can be replaced, like with like and if they are brass, you replace with brass and so on.
The fact that ir has a diesel leak is much the same, it leaks. As long as it is not pouring out at an alarming rate or falling onto something which might get very hot and cause it to burn, then this leak is of little consequence. All the diesel has to do is get to the engine somehow.
Rounded nuts and small diesel leaks are for tomorrow.
When the engine started to fail, did you notice any unusual or bad or grinding or banging noises just before engine failure - this is important as it can point the way to a reason and hence a fix/cure? No noises and stopping . . . I would look to an air intake which needs to be fixed as long as their were no bad noises from the engine just before it expired?
Perhaps we can fix collectively it for you?
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I
Iota
Guest
Sea, not sure which Plymouth Marina you are in but there are some good 'old fashioned' engineers around the area. Mick at M&G Marine in Mayflower is good and I have one or two other names who like Mick will have a sensible conversation with yoo about the problem, what you can do and what you might need them to do.
sea
Well-Known Member
Yes a group effort to give my thorny some life. She ran sweet as a nut, no noises, she stopped because of the hidden fuel cut off that was mostly closed. (i hadnt been informed about that one and even the engineer didnt see it till i pointed it out) air is fine, she is turning over fine, but nothing more, not even trying to fire. i agree the leak and nuts arent huge.
SO if she ran out of fuel, and wont start after bleeding, whats going on?
thanks for your help, its much appreciated..
SO if she ran out of fuel, and wont start after bleeding, whats going on?
thanks for your help, its much appreciated..
sea
Well-Known Member
Funny you say that, i am in mayflower and M&G were an option but unavailable when i needed an engineer, now i feel funny about going to the competition. I would rather call in an outside operation i think. Tricky one.
I
Iota
Guest
Get the fuel pump off and open it up. If you have the space mole grips will go onto the rounded nuts to get them. Give them a good soak in easing fluid - liquid spanner or something like it. If not enough rooom try tapping them off - screw driver to the direction you want to go and then tap with a hammer, once they begin to go it will be easy.
I
Iota
Guest
Go and see Mick and tell him you are in trouble, he will help and certainly give you good advice. He is by far the best engineer in that Marina.
PetiteFleur
Well-Known Member
One clue you say is that the engine took a long time to start after being laid up for 14 months. This is exactly the position I was in 5 years ago when I bought my boat, Moody 33 with the Thornycroft T90 engine. Before launch I changed the oil(it was like sludge), I suspect the oil had not been changed for years, since a "reconditioning". I also changed all the fuel lines and leakoff pipes to metal ones from plastic hose. I had to take the head off as one heater plug was broken off, I also took the opportunity to check and grind all the valves. After launch the engine took at least 25 seconds to start, accompanied with clouds of black smoke. It was like this for the rest of the season and in the winter layup I did a compression test. Two cylinders were OK, one was fair and no 4 was very low. I also had the choice of reconditioning or replacement. Again about 2k for reconditioning and about 3.5k for a new engine to fit myself. I had an unexpected legacy so I bought a new Beta 25hp engine. In my case it was a good move as it's now very reliable.
Your case sounds similar to mine. Get a second opinion from an independent engineer, possibly a compression test(I bought a tester on eBay and then sold it on) unfortunately I don't know anyone in the Plymouth - I'm in Suffolk.
Other points to look at are the steel injector pipes to the injectors(they rust through); the fuel pump(split/porous diaphram); water injection elbow corroded, allowing water to get into no 4 cylinder causing damage(therefore poor compression); injectors need servicing; injection pump needs an overhaul.
As the nuts are well rounded on the injector pump then they have obviously been on and off a lot - replace all four pipes - this is where you may have a leak.
I would get a second opinion and a compression test. If compression OK then it's probably a fuel problem, and much cheaper to sort than a reconditioning.
All spares can be got from Thornycroft or ASAP Supplies, very helpful Tel 0845 1300870 who will be cheaper. But be careful as some spares are manufactured overseas and quality is variable. Thousands of these engines were built, and you either love them or hate them. It may even pay to get a good secondhand one.
If you go for a new engine, I recommend Beta Marine, the engines are based on Kubota diesels and spares are available readily. Beta will also make the engine mounts to suit your bearers, which also Thornycroft will do with their Mitsubishi modern equivalent. Also bear in mind if you have a new engine you may also need a new exhaust system, prop and shaft(depending on rotation). Also look carefully at access for normal servicing, especially sea water pump location( I believe Yanmar have an akward pump, but others may know better). Good luck anyway and keep us informed.
Your case sounds similar to mine. Get a second opinion from an independent engineer, possibly a compression test(I bought a tester on eBay and then sold it on) unfortunately I don't know anyone in the Plymouth - I'm in Suffolk.
Other points to look at are the steel injector pipes to the injectors(they rust through); the fuel pump(split/porous diaphram); water injection elbow corroded, allowing water to get into no 4 cylinder causing damage(therefore poor compression); injectors need servicing; injection pump needs an overhaul.
As the nuts are well rounded on the injector pump then they have obviously been on and off a lot - replace all four pipes - this is where you may have a leak.
I would get a second opinion and a compression test. If compression OK then it's probably a fuel problem, and much cheaper to sort than a reconditioning.
All spares can be got from Thornycroft or ASAP Supplies, very helpful Tel 0845 1300870 who will be cheaper. But be careful as some spares are manufactured overseas and quality is variable. Thousands of these engines were built, and you either love them or hate them. It may even pay to get a good secondhand one.
If you go for a new engine, I recommend Beta Marine, the engines are based on Kubota diesels and spares are available readily. Beta will also make the engine mounts to suit your bearers, which also Thornycroft will do with their Mitsubishi modern equivalent. Also bear in mind if you have a new engine you may also need a new exhaust system, prop and shaft(depending on rotation). Also look carefully at access for normal servicing, especially sea water pump location( I believe Yanmar have an akward pump, but others may know better). Good luck anyway and keep us informed.
sea
Well-Known Member
Ok im going to town to update the ships tool kit then im going to get started.
Keep it coming
Keep it coming
Bosunof
Well-Known Member
Try This
A friend had a similar problem with air ingestion into the fuel line. He checked all the banjoes and foiund that some had washers that didnt fit. Those that were offset had been letting in air. You might give that a try. Economikcal too.
As you are in Plymouth there is a company on the old RAF Mountbatten site that helped me a couple of years ago and did not cost me the Earth. Chat to them.
Or, you might like to talk to Mashfords on the Western side. They look after an oppo's boats and he swears by their workmanship and as a retird gent he can afford their bills too. Worth a try.
A friend had a similar problem with air ingestion into the fuel line. He checked all the banjoes and foiund that some had washers that didnt fit. Those that were offset had been letting in air. You might give that a try. Economikcal too.
As you are in Plymouth there is a company on the old RAF Mountbatten site that helped me a couple of years ago and did not cost me the Earth. Chat to them.
Or, you might like to talk to Mashfords on the Western side. They look after an oppo's boats and he swears by their workmanship and as a retird gent he can afford their bills too. Worth a try.
whipper_snapper
Well-Known Member
If it started, albeit with some difficulty, after months of non use then there is nothing wrong with compression. You might have pulled water in and knackered it while struggling to start it, but it does not sound likely because it subsequently ran normally. If it ran normally and died quietly, then it almost certainly is simply a fuel problem that you have not found and fixed yet.
Air still in the system - I don't know the engine, have you bled the injectors ?
Crud in the pickup line or a blocked filter ? When you prime with the pump does plenty of bubble-free fuel emerge from the bleed points ?
It is almost certainly one of those annoying small problems that are associated with all marine diesels. I would not DREAM of replacing the engine. Apart from anything else, if it is a problem with the fuel tank or primary filter, changing the engine won't solve the problem!!
30boat
N/A
From what has been said above I would do the following.I would rig a fuel can above the engine,hung from the companionway or something,remembering to take the leakoff pipe to it,and connect it to the fuel pump inlet or the injection pump wichever is easier.You can then prime the injection pump by gravity or if you wish , fit an outboard type hand pump in the circuit.Then you can prime the injectors individually with the starter.I believe you still have compression so this will exclude any fuel circuit related problem you may have.
GSL
Well-Known Member
Compression check
I would suggest that before spending too much money with a mechanic getting the fuel sorted out, get him to carry out a compression check to confirm engine condition, if that shows well then money spent on sorting out the probable problem (fuel system) will not be wasted.
If compression is down on one or more cylinder, any money spent on the fuel system will be largely wasted, the fuel pump, injectors and lines are far easier to repair / replace on the bench during a rebuild.
If compression is OK, it is then the right time to continue sorting out the fuel system, and once fixed and running properly you know that the compression is correct and suitable for ongoing use.
Graham
I would suggest that before spending too much money with a mechanic getting the fuel sorted out, get him to carry out a compression check to confirm engine condition, if that shows well then money spent on sorting out the probable problem (fuel system) will not be wasted.
If compression is down on one or more cylinder, any money spent on the fuel system will be largely wasted, the fuel pump, injectors and lines are far easier to repair / replace on the bench during a rebuild.
If compression is OK, it is then the right time to continue sorting out the fuel system, and once fixed and running properly you know that the compression is correct and suitable for ongoing use.
Graham
alan17
Well-Known Member
Re the rounded nuts. Snap On and others make special sockets with a sharp left hand coarse thread to grip rounded rusted nuts and remove them with ease.
madmolly
New Member
Before you do any more,
1. crank the engine.. what colour are the expelled exhaust gasses
A.Greyish/white
B.Black
C. none
A is unburnt fuel
B is accumulated oil, dont worry to much.
C dont worry
If you have A. glow plugs faulty, a worn engine may struggle to start, starter speed to slow, poor compression... all unlikely
B is normally valve stem seals, they will harden up over time and wear, common fault not a stopper..
C
you then have to break the system down, do as boat30 said and rig an high temporary fuel tank,( called an iron lung) you only neeed to connect a feed to the injector pump, stick a pipe in, syphon the fuel and connect to the injector pump inlet, dont worry about the tank return, crank the engine the pump will draw fuel with a head of pressure, it may take a while, crack each injector pipe in turn, start with the shortest first, close off before you move on to the next one, soon as fuel sprays close it of.... take your time and examine each part of the system as you work on it.. report any faults question back to the forum..
good luck..
1. crank the engine.. what colour are the expelled exhaust gasses
A.Greyish/white
B.Black
C. none
A is unburnt fuel
B is accumulated oil, dont worry to much.
C dont worry
If you have A. glow plugs faulty, a worn engine may struggle to start, starter speed to slow, poor compression... all unlikely
B is normally valve stem seals, they will harden up over time and wear, common fault not a stopper..
C
you then have to break the system down, do as boat30 said and rig an high temporary fuel tank,( called an iron lung) you only neeed to connect a feed to the injector pump, stick a pipe in, syphon the fuel and connect to the injector pump inlet, dont worry about the tank return, crank the engine the pump will draw fuel with a head of pressure, it may take a while, crack each injector pipe in turn, start with the shortest first, close off before you move on to the next one, soon as fuel sprays close it of.... take your time and examine each part of the system as you work on it.. report any faults question back to the forum..
good luck..
temptress
Well-Known Member
I completely disagree with you. Just because you are not prepared to set-off without knowing everything is no reason to tell them not to.
When I bought my first boat, moved onboard and set off I knew very little about looking after it and NOTHING about engines. I learned because i had to and often found another sailor to help me when I did not understand. The internet was not around and you just got on with it. When the engine went wrong in the Portugal I just ignored as I was in a hurry to get NOTH (Norway) and I got it sorted when I got there. Although it had been pronounced dead in Portugal by a local engineer it was relatively easy to fix once I put some effort into it.
Now all we need is some more info in here from the OP and perhaps we can point them in the right direction.
Where is the Boat and what are the symptoms?
