Oyster Yachts gone into administration

[Angele]

Legally, all companies have their own identity. Neither a parent company, nor any administrator of it, can unilaterally flog off the subsidiary's assets. And, even if it could, the proceeds of the sale would belong to the subsidiary and hence all of its creditors would have a claim on that - including warranty claimants.

The administrator can sell the assets of the holding co - that is the shares in the subsidiary - but that keeps the subsidiary entirely intact. It cannot dump the warranty liabilities that way.

 

[lw395]

We don't know much about the comapny structure.
But it isn't just the holding company that's apparently laying off its workforce.

 

[Angele]

We don't know much about the comapny structure.
But it isn't just the holding company that's apparently laying off its workforce.

You can easily work out the company structure from the accounts. Correct that it must be the operating company laying off the staff, but it is still solvent at the moment.

 

[JumbleDuck]

And when your wife comes from a village where half the population have her surname (the other half have another one!), you soon remember to ask "Do you mean "village" cousin or real cousin?"

Thanks for that. You'll know, I'm sure, that "cousin" in the Western Isles covers a far wider range of relationships than "sharing a grandparent". My aunt refers to Alastair Darling as a cousin, although the link is about four generations back.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Thanks for that. You'll know, I'm sure, that "cousin" in the Western Isles covers a far wider range of relationships than "sharing a grandparent". My aunt refers to Alastair Darling as a cousin, although the link is about four generations back.

Seems to be a Celtic thing. There's the old joke about the spy who parachuted into a Welsh village. His contact was called John Jones, so of course, he asked where he could find John Jones. Was it Jones the butcher? No, that didn't sound right. Jones the Post? No. Ah, you must want Jones the Spy!

 

[[70521]]

That depends - there is not that much call for their skills and if a solution is found that keeps what is essentially the same company going I thnk many would happy to stay on / go back,

Lots of French builders with very full order books, if I was them I would be heading to the UK offering work to some very skilled people.

 

[eddystone]

Lots of French builders with very full order books, if I was them I would be heading to the UK offering work to some very skilled people.

Ironic that while our few remaining (sail) yacht builders seem to go to the wall one by one, they are sprouting like mushrooms in France. Of course I believed what I was told a few years ago about how entrepreneurs were flocking to the UK because France was such an anti-business environment.

 

[roblpm]

Ironic that while our few remaining (sail) yacht builders seem to go to the wall one by one, they are sprouting like mushrooms in France. Of course I believed what I was told a few years ago about how entrepreneurs were flocking to the UK because France was such an anti-business environment.

Caught a bit of a program on Radio 4 yesterday describing how much more investment in automation and robotics there has been in France compared to here. We seem to revere some guys in a shed hand crafting a few expensive boats. Meanwhile on the continent companies like Bavaria are producing thousands of boats a year in a modern production facility. However if you did a survey on here it seems most people would take a 70s contessa 32 over the new Bavaria equivalent!

 

[Champagne Murphy]

Lots of French builders with very full order books, if I was them I would be heading to the UK offering work to some very skilled people.

I’ll bet their Trade Unions aren’t so happy about that.

 

[ip485]

You can easily work out the company structure from the accounts. Correct that it must be the operating company laying off the staff, but it is still solvent at the moment.

To be fair, I think "easily" is a relative term, and even then with a good understanding of accounts AND corporate law in any group situation the covenants, guarantees and terms of the relationship between the companies in the Group and the external investors and lenders may be complex and not fully disclosable (in the accounts). Fair to say I think it would be very unusual with this structure and the investors involved for the parent company and the investors not to hold all the aces in terms of how the whole pack ultimately unfolds.

 

[Laser310]

Caught a bit of a program on Radio 4 yesterday describing how much more investment in automation and robotics there has been in France compared to here. We seem to revere some guys in a shed hand crafting a few expensive boats. Meanwhile on the continent companies like Bavaria are producing thousands of boats a year in a modern production facility. However if you did a survey on here it seems most people would take a 70s contessa 32 over the new Bavaria equivalent!

French builders are using automation at the high-end as well

I mentioned Gunboat above. As most know, GB is now owned by the French company Grand Large Yachting, and they are building a new design (the GB68) in France. Grand Large owns several other brands including Outremer catamarans, and Garcia and Allures (mostly aluminum monohulls).

Gunboat has been releasing news letters concerning various aspects of the new 68. The most recent one discusses the use of robotics in building hull 1 of the new 68 series.

https://mailchi.mp/gunboat/gunboat68-inner-strength?e=[UNIQID]

Interestingly.., several of the Grand Large brands were acquired through bankruptcies...

 

[ip485]

It is of course a personal opinion but while I am all in favour of the accuracy and consistency automation gives it seems to me most of the high end volume builders are still some way removed from the equivalent car manufactuers. Car manufacturers have managed to produce a product that comes across as "top quality" while also actually being top quality. Yacht manufacturers on the other hand still produce yachts that somehow dont convey the quality of the best hand built. To be fair they also arent selling their product at the same price, and I guess the volume isnt there anyway. However I have yet to come across a volume yacht that exudes the quality of say an Oyster. There are enough people to pay for that difference. On the IP I have had a number of people say - it is odd nothing creeks or groans, and it all looks very solid compared with my x. It is indeed odd, but true.

 

[Laser310]

It is of course a personal opinion but while I am all in favour of the accuracy and consistency automation gives it seems to me most of the high end volume builders are still some way removed from the equivalent car manufactuers. Car manufacturers have managed to produce a product that comes across as "top quality" while also actually being top quality. Yacht manufacturers on the other hand still produce yachts that somehow dont convey the quality of the best hand built. To be fair they also arent selling their product at the same price, and I guess the volume isnt there anyway. However I have yet to come across a volume yacht that exudes the quality of say an Oyster. There are enough people to pay for that difference. On the IP I have had a number of people say - it is odd nothing creeks or groans, and it all looks very solid compared with my x. It is indeed odd, but true.

I agree about the obvious quality of Oyster Yachts - I have sailed thousands of ocean miles on them.

However, the use of automation and robotics doesn't necessarily imply volume building - Gunboat will build one or two 68's a year. These are not inexpensive yachts, and the target audience can easily afford an Oyster or any other yacht of similar size

As good as Oyster are, they are not using the most modern of composite technology .., nor do they need it for their yachts. I've also sailed thousands of ocean miles on Gunboat catamarans (well, okay one of them), and the demands on the structure at 20kts+ BSP in ocean waves are of an entirely different order than on an Oyster.

The reason to go with robotics on what are basically custom yachts is because the composite parts simply can not be built by humans to the weight, tolerance, strength, and quality that are required by the design. This is why composite aircraft are built by robots.

 

[eddystone]

Caught a bit of a program on Radio 4 yesterday describing how much more investment in automation and robotics there has been in France compared to here. We seem to revere some guys in a shed hand crafting a few expensive boats. Meanwhile on the continent companies like Bavaria are producing thousands of boats a year in a modern production facility. However if you did a survey on here it seems most people would take a 70s contessa 32 over the new Bavaria equivalent!

Ah but I wasn't making the comparison to Benny etc. There are lots of small volume French builders that have emerged, like Pogo and RM to name but two.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Car manufacturers have managed to produce a product that comes across as "top quality" while also actually being top quality.

Not always. Rolls-Royce pre-BMW/VW were horrible engineering kludges in many ways. Lovely leather and wood, but dreadful under the skin.

However I have yet to come across a volume yacht that exudes the quality of say an Oyster.

 

[Tranona]

It is of course a personal opinion but while I am all in favour of the accuracy and consistency automation gives it seems to me most of the high end volume builders are still some way removed from the equivalent car manufactuers. Car manufacturers have managed to produce a product that comes across as "top quality" while also actually being top quality. Yacht manufacturers on the other hand still produce yachts that somehow dont convey the quality of the best hand built. To be fair they also arent selling their product at the same price, and I guess the volume isnt there anyway. However I have yet to come across a volume yacht that exudes the quality of say an Oyster. There are enough people to pay for that difference. On the IP I have had a number of people say - it is odd nothing creeks or groans, and it all looks very solid compared with my x. It is indeed odd, but true.

Many of the "quality" boats use a high degree of automation in their manufacture and much of the appearance of "quality" comes from the materials used rather than the loving application of shipwright skills.

The big savings for the volume manufacturers is in the fast curing of hull mouldings and the construction of interior modules outside the boat, complete with all hardware, wiring and plumbing ready to be dropped into the cured hull. The use of CAD allows them to plan every bit of the installation in advance so that it all fits together easily and reliably.

You can see the result if you look closely at the finished product. My Bavaria 33 took a week to assemble from moulding the hull to a complete boat, although no doubt some of the subassemblies were made beforehand. It was delivered with zero defects and everything worked - and is still working (except a couple of software glitches with the Garmin gear). Fit and finish is excellent although this is partly achieved by matching up smaller components rather than trying to blend together in the traditional way. So, quality in terms of fitness for purpose and value for money at half the price of an equivalent size and equipped HR.

The challenge for the high cost brands is to use automation to improve accuracy and reduce time on the bits that are not seen and devote time and effort to the things that persuade the buyer to pay the premium price.

 

[[70521]]

Ironic that while our few remaining (sail) yacht builders seem to go to the wall one by one, they are sprouting like mushrooms in France. Of course I believed what I was told a few years ago about how entrepreneurs were flocking to the UK because France was such an anti-business environment.

Something to do with a hurricane I believe.

I have a 30 year old French boat and, apart from the wiring which was totally illogical (blue for negative) she is a joy to sail.

 

[[70521]]

I’ll bet their Trade Unions aren’t so happy about that.

Pourquoi?

 

[lw395]

Not always. Rolls-Royce pre-BMW/VW were horrible engineering kludges in many ways. Lovely leather and wood, but dreadful under the skin.

People have been using concrete, rocks and whatever is to hand to re-trim ships for as long as concrete has been invented.
If you look at bags of stones in B&Q, it's often labelled 'ballast'.
Somebody added a heavy structure to the stern, balancing that means either ballast in the bow, remove something from the stern or redesign the keel.
For sure that looks untidy, but it isn't the only large yacht with that kind of addition.
It's not ever so relevant to the factory build issues, as it was an aftermarket bodge.

 

[dom]

So Oyster’s are indeed built like brick s*** houses.

.....but dreadful under the skin.