Overlapping headsails and small main

[Wansworth]

All the yachts now inthe cheaper range of old secondhand boats suffer from having genoas that pass the cap shrouds a throwback to the racing designs of the 70s For older singlehanded or couples wrestling a Genoa in a breeze trying to tack is a pain.What possessed designers and builders to apply racing characteristics to cuiseing boats.so much easier to reef a bigger main.I suppose the furling gear that was developed got round the problem.Anyway on the Spanish market are lots of clapped out yachts probably with worn out furling genoas

 

[Chiara’s slave]

All the yachts now inthe cheaper range of old secondhand boats suffer from having genoas that pass the cap shrouds a throwback to the racing designs of the 70s For older singlehanded or couples wrestling a Genoa in a breeze trying to tack is a pain.What possessed designers and builders to apply racing characteristics to cuiseing boats.so much easier to reef a bigger main.I suppose the furling gear that was developed got round the problem.Anyway on the Spanish market are lots of clapped out yachts probably with worn out furling genoas

Racing rules have a lot to answer for. A lot of crappy cruising boats from any era you care to mention are crappy because they look a bit like racers from the time. Your car doesn’t look like Max’s Red Bull. It’s fairly tough in the boat market to avoid it.

 

[xyachtdave]

You'll probably find these mast head rigged boats would have been intended to have multiple head sails rather than just carry one large furling Genoa.

I can count on one hand the amount of times I've used a 140% head sail, in wind above 12-14 knots it's a menace and needs to come down and as you say a pain to tack. The performance difference is marginal over a smaller head sail in winds above 6-8 knots.

A couple of my mates have binned their big head sails too, only required for racing in light airs in my opinion.

 

[ashtead]

Answer is to have a small self tacker which rarely needs furling and a large outer headsail surely?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Good thinking. Maybe finding a used sail around 110% is possible?

I think on a small ish boat, having 2 headsails rigged is going to be difficult. One handleable sail is better IMHO

 

[Tranona]

Exactly the problem with my project boat. Although the design was not influenced by racing it originally had a large mainsail and working jib with the option of a genoa. Of course this was before furling jibs were common and expectation was that you would have 3 headsails and a storm jib to be used as appropriate. Along came furlers and owners (encouraged by sailmakers) replaced the 3 headsails with an overlapping genoa. I went the same route with Tranona which was a smaller version of my current boat, but in reality almost always sailed with 3 rolls in and had the sail modified with a foam luff so that the 3 roll set well. Interesting in a recent conversation with the son of the original owner he said his father rarely used the No1 and the No2 was the best sail for general use.

Fast forward 30 years and my GH came with a huge135% or so genoa (and Lewmar 43s to tame it). Other GH owners have had the same issue and would prefer a smaller sail except that light airs performance is already poor (too much weight and not enough overall sail area). So my solution (worked out in conjunction with Kemps) is a twin headsail rig. Fortunately there is already a short bowsprit with a masthead stay and the genoa is on a Furlex to the stemhead. The plan is to move this stay about 30cm down from the masthead to give enough separation for the fitment of a furler on the outer forestay. The genoa will be recut to go on the new furler and a new 106% high cut clew sail on the stemhead. This will be the working sail and much the same area as the No 2 on the original sailplan.. The genoa will be used for light airs and offwind. The other changes are to the mainsail which has greater roach so a bit more sail area and rather than full battens a Tides Marine track system will be fitted. Adding single line reefing and a stackpack with lazyjacks. All brought back to the cockpit.

This is all happening at the moment. The new furler arrived on Thursday and I have started fitting the hardware. Mainsail is made and new headsail is on order but actual detail design will come when the furlers are in the new position. The Tides track is on order from the US and due in about 2 weeks. Plan is to have it all finished by the end of June.

Does not help the OP if he is going to buy a old boat that is headsail driven with a limited budget. This little lot is costing well over half of what I paid for the boat!

 

[Wansworth]

Exactly the problem with my project boat. Although the design was not influenced by racing it originally had a large mainsail and working jib with the option of a genoa. Of course this was before furling jibs were common and expectation was that you would have 3 headsails and a storm jib to be used as appropriate. Along came furlers and owners (encouraged by sailmakers) replaced the 3 headsails with an overlapping genoa. I went the same route with Tranona which was a smaller version of my current boat, but in reality almost always sailed with 3 rolls in and had the sail modified with a foam luff so that the 3 roll set well. Interesting in a recent conversation with the son of the original owner he said his father rarely used the No1 and the No2 was the best sail for general use.

Fast forward 30 years and my GH came with a huge135% or so genoa (and Lewmar 43s to tame it). Other GH owners have had the same issue and would prefer a smaller sail except that light airs performance is already poor (too much weight and not enough overall sail area). So my solution (worked out in conjunction with Kemps) is a twin headsail rig. Fortunately there is already a short bowsprit with a masthead stay and the genoa is on a Furlex to the stemhead. The plan is to move this stay about 30cm down from the masthead to give enough separation for the fitment of a furler on the outer forestay. The genoa will be recut to go on the new furler and a new 106% high cut clew sail on the stemhead. This will be the working sail and much the same area as the No 2 on the original sailplan.. The genoa will be used for light airs and offwind. The other changes are to the mainsail which has greater roach so a bit more sail area and rather than full battens a Tides Marine track system will be fitted. Adding single line reefing and a stackpack with lazyjacks. All brought back to the cockpit.

This is all happening at the moment. The new furler arrived on Thursday and I have started fitting the hardware. Mainsail is made and new headsail is on order but actual detail design will come when the furlers are in the new position. The Tides track is on order from the US and due in about 2 weeks. Plan is to have it all finished by the end of June.

Does not help the OP if he is going to buy an old boat that is headsail driven with a limited budget. This little lot is costing well over half of what I paid for the boat!

Thanks for your reply .My solution might be a new Genoa with no overlap,set on the furler and later add a code one type sail,much of the ria sailing is reaching in the rias

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Sensible on your boat, Tranona. Not much room for 2 furlers on a C.25ft boat, generally.
Wansworth, was wondering if your budget would run to a code sail, or possibly s flat cut cruising chute/asymetric.

 

[geem]

Our boat was designed in the era before furlers. We have a slot in our pulpit for a deck sweeping genoa.
Like Tranoma, we overcame the problem of a big genoa by adding a second furler. We have a 130% genoa on the outer furler and a blade jib on the inner furler. It's a different world from a sail handling perspective. You maintain performance and ease. Not likely to be a solution on a smallish boat though

 

[KeelsonGraham]

The timing of this post is uncanny. I’ve just swapped my genoa for a smaller headsail and was going to start a post about how much better life is without the big unwieldy sail. We’ve noticed little if any drop in performance but a vast increase in ease of use and visibility. I doubt we’ll ever put the genoa back on. Here’s a quote from North Sails’ website:

Large overlapping genoas are difficult to handle, hard to tack, easy to damage, and impossible to see around. A smaller jib is much easier to handle. On boats with large mainsails, a genoa is an unnecessary burden. In all but the lightest conditions, a working jib provides comparable performance (hey, we’re not racing!), and in moderate to heavy air the jib performs better.

I couldn’t agree more.

 

[bedouin]

Mine is an old "IOR" design and the #1 is (was) 150%.

Totally inappropriate for a roller reefing sail as if it is made from strong enough fabric to work when furled to about half it's area it is far to heavy to work in light airs.

I now use a 110% as my every day furling sail and in light winds use an asymmetric or gennaker (or the iron topsail)

 

[Tranona]

The timing of this post is uncanny. I’ve just swapped my genoa for a smaller headsail and was going to start a post about how much better life is without the big unwieldy sail. We’ve noticed little if any drop in performance but a vast increase in ease of use and visibility. I doubt we’ll ever put the genoa back on. Here’s a quote from North Sails’ website:

Large overlapping genoas are difficult to handle, hard to tack, easy to damage, and impossible to see around. A smaller jib is much easier to handle. On boats with large mainsails, a genoa is an unnecessary burden. In all but the lightest conditions, a working jib provides comparable performance (hey, we’re not racing!), and in moderate to heavy air the jib performs better.

I couldn’t agree more.

The key here is the comment about large mainsail. Some older boats have a tiny high aspect mainsail that is more of a trim tab and the genoa provides most of the drive. The general thrust of the advice is sound, but you still have to look at the proportions of the original rig before deciding on how much to change.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Messing about with the main might easily have detrimental effects on the helm balance, tempting though it might be to suggest. But until our friend comes up with a boat, it’s hard to be specific.

 

[Wansworth]

The timing of this post is uncanny. I’ve just swapped my genoa for a smaller headsail and was going to start a post about how much better life is without the big unwieldy sail. We’ve noticed little if any drop in performance but a vast increase in ease of use and visibility. I doubt we’ll ever put the genoa back on. Here’s a quote from North Sails’ website:

Large overlapping genoas are difficult to handle, hard to tack, easy to damage, and impossible to see around. A smaller jib is much easier to handle. On boats with large mainsails, a genoa is an unnecessary burden. In all but the lightest conditions, a working jib provides comparable performance (hey, we’re not racing!), and in moderate to heavy air the jib performs better.

I couldn’t agree more.

Great!

 

[Wansworth]

Messing about with the main might easily have detrimental effects on the helm balance, tempting though it might be to suggest. But until our friend comes up with a boat, it’s hard to be specific.

I suppose furling away the Genoa to say 100% and see how it sails over a period before major expense will be the path,the mainsail cannot be altered without a new boom for a start.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, that is a good idea, although at that level of sail reduction the genoa will likely be a pretty poor shape. It will give you a guide though as I explained earlier. However a good sailmaker should be able to work out the optimum size for you. The other thing to remember is that sail cloth and cutting is so much better now for producing sails that are stable and hold their shape.

 

[01_Anna]

I suppose furling away the Genoa to say 100% and see how it sails over a period before major expense will be the path,the mainsail cannot be altered without a new boom for a start.

Of course getting a cheap, or even free smaller mainsail, as well as a jib; is not an option, is it? Too simple a solution...

 

[Buck Turgidson]

The Twister is one of the boats Tranona describes. Large Genoa for drive and small main for trim. The previous owner on my boat re-rigged with a meter taller mast to a sail plan described as the "Med Rig". My Gen is no bigger than the large IOR Genoa specified on the original sail plan but my main is bigger. 20% more area than the original and it shows. I need to reef down to the original size in anything over 10kts true for the boat to balance or I let out the main until its almost all backwinded at the luff, which balances the sail but provides almost no extra drive.

When it's time for a new main I will have one made to the original sail area but even this will mean it's a taller aspect ratio so the centre of pressure will be higher.

Moral of the story is really, don't mess with original sail plans without some serious analysis first.

 

[geem]

I suppose furling away the Genoa to say 100% and see how it sails over a period before major expense will be the path,the mainsail cannot be altered without a new boom for a start.

From my experience and discussions with sailmakers, once you have reefed a third of the sail away, you are on the limit of any reasonable sail performance. Even with a foam luff.
Upwind, we never reef our Genoa. We hang onto it until 20kts apparent then furl it away and deploy the smaller sail on the inner furler. No change in boat speed but we pitch less, heel less and point higher. As wind speed continues to increase we heel more, boat speed increases and we point higher still as the small sail gets into the groove

 

[Wansworth]

Of course getting a cheap, or even free smaller mainsail, as well as a jib; is not an option, is it? Too simple a solution...

The boat in question is the Dufour 2800 shown in another post.The Mai is already quite small so I would be looking to replacethe140% Genoa this will detract for off wind sailing but save on arm pulling