Over reaction to current situation

[rotrax]

Maybe, just maybe, Germany doesn't work their junior doctors to breaking point but trains and employs enough staff to do the job properly?

Google 'German medical staff shortages' Then change it for all other EU members.

All in the same boat, I'm afraid.

Most European countries have a shortage of skilled medical staff. Medical staff are short the world over.

I can only hope they are rewarded with better pay and conditions after this crisis, which might attract new recruits to the vocation.

They are all heroes.

 

[Babylon]

The

The issue is that we don’t know what the infection rate is! I was with a consultant last week, he said that he and a lot of his colleagues are of the opinion that if the ones, like me and bride and friends, who are pretty certain have had the mild form, were put in to the equation then the death rate is close to 0.1 % the same as a bad seasonal flu! We are seeing more and more public people having it and a week later are on national tv answering questions, so! Doom mongering by an NHS pro isn’t helpful, your evidence is no better than mine! Plus the public is now seeing these public personas having suffered a mild form and the penny is starting to drop. Perhaps Trump and Sweden will end up being the winners?

It doesn't matter. What matters is that the country as a whole gives a damn about containing this vicious virus so that as many vulnerable people as possible can be protected/saved and a whole load more seemingly non-vulnerable people (like young nurses, children, ordinary middle-aged people) not die wholly unnecessarily due to careless viral-overload.

The sooner we can flatten the curve the sooner at least quasi-normal service can resume.

 

[Stemar]

Actually, flattening the curve will slow the return to normality, but also slows the flow of people into hospital.

If you want to speed things up, what you need is lots of street parties, crowded concerts and stuff. Most people will be fine, but the small (but significantly larger than in the slow scenario) minority will be dying in the streets because there'll be no room for them in hospital, but only for a few weeks.

 

[Daydream believer]

Actually, flattening the curve will slow the return to normality, but also slows the flow of people into hospital.

If you want to speed things up, what you need is lots of street parties, crowded concerts and stuff. Most people will be fine, but the small (but significantly larger than in the slow scenario) minority will be dying in the streets because there'll be no room for them in hospital, but only for a few weeks.

It is OK because a certain section of the community seem to think that the law does not apply to them . This is supported by their local MP-- 24 minutes in to this:-
Funerals
It may well be false news, so needs to be researched correctly. But pictures do not always lie. If true, I would like to see the MP, at least, stood before the courts to answer some questions: if not the grieving relatives, with whom one might have a small amount of sympathy.
That being said I think that the moderators would prefer forumites NOT to make adverse comments re ideology,race or religion.
However, MPs acting illegally are a fair target, I suspect

 

[dom]

It is OK because a certain section of the community seem to think that the law does not apply to them....

They basically think right! This covidiot (her words) only went when her position became absolutely untenable:

Scotland's chief medical officer "truly sorry" for Fife visit amid calls for her to resign - The Courier

 

[[163233]]

...Medical staff are short the world over.
I can only hope they are rewarded with better pay and conditions after this crisis, which might attract new recruits to the vocation.
...

With full respect to the people who do the job, but it ain't pay and conditions, there are plenty of people capable of being doctors and medics more generally, but are barred by unnecessarily hard academic qualifications, basically there just aren't enough training places.

This doesn't even serve current medics who are overworked as a result.

I'm not suggesting the ranks of media studies be repurposed, but that there be spaces for people who have really quite good academics, who still can't get into it.

 

[DJE]

With full respect to the people who do the job, but it ain't pay and conditions, there are plenty of people capable of being doctors and medics more generally, but are barred by unnecessarily hard academic qualifications, basically there just aren't enough training places.

This doesn't even serve current medics who are overworked as a result.

I'm not suggesting the ranks of media studies be repurposed, but that there be spaces for people who have really quite good academics, who still can't get into it.

Friend's daughter who had all A*s at A-level in maths and sciences still struggled to get a place a medical school recently.

 

[JumbleDuck]

With full respect to the people who do the job, but it ain't pay and conditions, there are plenty of people capable of being doctors and medics more generally, but are barred by unnecessarily hard academic qualifications, basically there just aren't enough training places.

The biggest problem is that the current system chooses the wrong people to fill the places there are. 50% of all medical students never practice, which is not surprising because few 17 year olds can sensibly commit to a profession like that. And by 17 year olds I really mean 15 year olds, because if you are not stacking up brownie points in work experience by then, you have much less chance of a place. I used to have medical school colleagues and there were wholeheartedly in favour of moving to postgraduate medical schools, as in the US.

 

[Triassic]

It's not about pay, it is about conditions. You just have to look at the current issues to see an example of that. Why are medical staff on the front line treating a highly contagious serious illnesses without appropriate PPE? When your budget is more important than the safety of your staff something is seriously wrong. Unfortunately the people making these decisions are not the ones in the firing line, or at least they weren't until this little bug came along. Things will change.

 

[JumbleDuck]

It's not about pay, it is about conditions.

It's not that long since junior doctors en masse said that the governments proposals for the NHS would cause serious harm to patients and that they would therefore only implement them for a substantial pay rise.

 

[jordanbasset]

It's not that long since junior doctors en masse said that the governments proposals for the NHS would cause serious harm to patients and that they would therefore only implement them for a substantial pay rise.

Have you got a link to where Junior Doctors 'en masse said that the governments proposals for the NHS would cause serious harm to patients and that they would therefore only implement them for a substantial pay rise.'

 

[Triassic]

Have you got a link to where Junior Doctors 'en masse said that the governments proposals for the NHS would cause serious harm to patients and that they would therefore only implement them for a substantial pay rise.'

Took the words right out of my mouth....... That's quite a new one on me JumbleDuck so would like to know where you got that information from.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Have you got a link to where Junior Doctors 'en masse said that the governments proposals for the NHS would cause serious harm to patients and that they would therefore only implement them for a substantial pay rise.'

That was the gist of their negotiating position.

 

[jordanbasset]

That was the gist of their negotiating position.

So show us the link
Here's one I found, can you point out where it says what you are saying
Junior doctors agree new contract to end four-year dispute

 

[dom]

So show us the link
Here's one I found, can you point out where it says what you are saying
Junior doctors agree new contract to end four-year dispute

It's amazing how easily safety issues -- whether it be train guards, steel-shifts, or shipyard work practice -- can solved by higher pay; a perfectly standard trade union tactic of course.

As for the junior doctors' dispute, many see the patient safety issue as a somewhat disingenuous ruse, me included. Others of course disagree. Here are some contemporaneous examples of media puzzlement, both are consistent with JD's take. No doubt the Guardian disagreed!

Either way, the dispute was ultimately settled with an 8.2% pay rise and hopefully everybody is happy now.

FactCheck: how much is the doctors’ strike about patient safety?
Confirmed: the junior doctors' strike was about money, not patient safety | The Spectator

 

[Blue Sunray]

Friend's daughter who had all A*s at A-level in maths and sciences still struggled to get a place a medical school recently.

That is reassuring. As others have said academic excellence does not necessarily a good doctor make, hence the need for extensive and relevant work experience and why medicine is just about the only subject for which universities now conduct interviews.

 

[jordanbasset]

It's amazing how easily safety issues -- whether it be train guards, steel-shifts, or shipyard work practice -- can solved by higher pay; a perfectly standard trade union tactic of course.

As for the junior doctors' dispute, many see the patient safety issue as a somewhat disingenuous ruse, me included. Others of course disagree. Here are some contemporaneous examples of media puzzlement, both are consistent with JD's take. No doubt the Guardian disagreed!

Either way, the dispute was ultimately settled with an 8.2% pay rise and hopefully everybody is happy now.

FactCheck: how much is the doctors’ strike about patient safety?
Confirmed: the junior doctors' strike was about money, not patient safety | The Spectator

The Channel 4 article was before the final agreement which did have more safeguards put in
The Spectator is owned by the Barclay Brothers and very pro Conservative, hardly surprising it was not supportive of the Doctor's position
In reality they got 2% a year, hardly a 'substantial payrise', in fact virtually no pay rise at all when you factor in inflation. In addition they got more safeguards to try and prevent the long hours they were previously forced to work and so putting patients in danger.

Would the Doctors of wanted more safeguards and more money, of course they would. But in any negotiation there has to be compromises

 

[JumbleDuck]

So show us the link
Here's one I found, can you point out where it says what you are saying
Junior doctors agree new contract to end four-year dispute

Having spent years arguing that the new contract would jeopardise patient safety, they accepted it for an 8.3% pay rise.

 

[jordanbasset]

Having spent years arguing that the new contract would jeopardise patient safety, they accepted it for an 8.3% pay rise.

No, there were also changes to working conditions and the pay rise was 8.2% over 4 years. In those years inflation on average was close to 2%.
Are you really saying that was a 'substantial' pay rise?

 

[JumbleDuck]

That is reassuring. As others have said academic excellence does not necessarily a good doctor make, hence the need for extensive and relevant work experience and why medicine is just about the only subject for which universities now conduct interviews.

Up to a point. Some medical schools are very good at seeking out ability anywhere while some still show a shocking lack of diversity as a result of a barely hidden desire to appoint "people like us".