Outboard in Well

[TSB240]

I do have a blanking plug, but lifting the outboard and putting it in a locker is just not
practical for me. Apart from the weight and awkwardness I have a long trip to find the open sea. I sail when I can but narrowness , commercial traffic , and other yachties make the
engine always available. The 4 stroke is also considerably quieter and has a much longer
range than the 2 stroke. I did try a 2 stoke once but it set off my smoke alarm located in
the cabin despite being unable to see fumes.

Each to their own of course.

I used to run a Tohatsu 9.8 Hp 2 stroke in a well with our trailable yacht . I never found the fuel consumption a limiting factor and we would typically use just under a gallon an hour. The only 4 stroke alternative available that fitted the well was a single cylinder 6hp Tohatsu. This actually used the same leg as the 9.8 2T. The appeal was it should have halved my fuel consumption in reality it made little difference.

It was useless in short chop which stopped the boat though marginally better with a saildrive prop. Any gain in efficiency was lost in having to use far more throttle for the same performance.

The noise was slightly muted but the transmitted vibration of the single cylinder through the hull was much more pronounced than the sewing machine frequency of the twin cylinder two stroke.

I very much doubt your additional considerable range as there is only about a 10%-12% difference in fuel consumption between equivalent small hp models.

Fumes in the cabin were eliminated by using the Tohatsu approved leg vent which was piped through the transom.
The weight and size of the 9.8 2T was such that I became quite adept at switching it between locker and well at short notice especially in confined areas on our way out to sea.

I was much happier with the well fairing plug in and gaining an extra knot of boat speed under sail and total peace without the sound of engine or prop spinning and well gurgling. We also kept a much drier cockpit!

 

[LONG_KEELER]

I used to run a Tohatsu 9.8 Hp 2 stroke in a well with our trailable yacht . I never found the fuel consumption a limiting factor and we would typically use just under a gallon an hour. The only 4 stroke alternative available that fitted the well was a single cylinder 6hp Tohatsu. This actually used the same leg as the 9.8 2T. The appeal was it should have halved my fuel consumption in reality it made little difference.

It was useless in short chop which stopped the boat though marginally better with a saildrive prop. Any gain in efficiency was lost in having to use far more throttle for the same performance.

The noise was slightly muted but the transmitted vibration of the single cylinder through the hull was much more pronounced than the sewing machine frequency of the twin cylinder two stroke.

I very much doubt your additional considerable range as there is only about a 10%-12% difference in fuel consumption between equivalent small hp models.

Fumes in the cabin were eliminated by using the Tohatsu approved leg vent which was piped through the transom.
The weight and size of the 9.8 2T was such that I became quite adept at switching it between locker and well at short notice especially in confined areas on our way out to sea.

I was much happier with the well fairing plug in and gaining an extra knot of boat speed under sail and total peace without the sound of engine or prop spinning and well gurgling. We also kept a much drier cockpit!

I do believe that a 2stroke can make a decent living in a well provided, as you mention, it is a
twin with lots of reserve power. Hence being able to motor with much lower revs resulting in less noise and vibration.

I know that the honda 2hp gets a lot of negative billing, but it's dead easy to lift from a locker and quickly fire up in the well either to get you out of trouble or wiggle into a marina berth.
Being able to spin 360 degrees often means you have more manoeuvrability than an inboard.

Most yachts with a well come with a tailored plug and now you can enjoy pure sailing. With lazy jacks and crowded beginnings and endings of you're day's sailing putting up and lowering the main can be difficult without an engine and I prefer doing it under power.

The Honda only needs a sip or two of petrol now and then and also has a double life powering the inflatable. Note to self, get out the honda more often.

 

[Greenheart]

...the "rubber" well plug supplied with the Etap does exactly what you suggest.

I'm relieved it isn't just me that thought of it!

I was imagining taking two clay casts of the opposite sides of the yacht's outboard leg where it goes through the waterline; so the new plug would take the form of two tough longitudinal-section port-and-starboard glassfibre mouldings which fill the well and complete the outside curve of the hull, with only the right size of hole in the middle for the chosen outboard. A layer of rubber close round the engine leg would prevent rattling vibration.

The halves would bolt tightly onto the leg, and the engine would be lifted out with the moulding attached. But many owners would leave it in, accepting the reduced drag from the prop and leg, as far better than the big square opening that previously accompanied use of the auxiliary. I realise this wouldn't be needed for all classes, like Etaps which effectively use the same solution already.

Sorry for repeating myself.

 

[coveman]

I'm relieved it isn't just me that thought of it!

I was imagining taking two clay casts of the opposite sides of the yacht's outboard leg where it goes through the waterline; so the new plug would take the form of two tough longitudinal-section port-and-starboard glassfibre mouldings which fill the well and complete the outside curve of the hull, with only the right size of hole in the middle for the chosen outboard. A layer of rubber close round the engine leg would prevent rattling vibration.

The halves would bolt tightly onto the leg, and the engine would be lifted out with the moulding attached. But many owners would leave it in, accepting the reduced drag from the prop and leg, as far better than the big square opening that previously accompanied use of the auxiliary. I realise this wouldn't be needed for all classes, like Etaps which effectively use the same solution already.

Sorry for repeating myself.

It sounds as though that would be a good DIY solution - one point that may be worth considering - my outboard cavitation plate is lodged inside the plug which helps to prevent the plug from lifting when underway. It may be necessary to form a collar of some sort which could be fixed to the leg to prevent the plug lifting?

I know many owners leave the outboard and plug in all season, but I worry about salt corrosion so take it out if I'm not using the engine for a while. Good luck with crafting a plug!

 

[Greenheart]

Thank you, I'm not actually making one myself yet, but I believe in the principle for when I have a well to plug.

Interesting that your cavitation plate locks inside the plug - I would think that means the propeller is considerably closer to the hull (or, to the outside of the plug which substitutes for the hull in the closed cavity) than is ideal...but if it works, that's all that matters.

Quite right to heave out and flush the engine between passages or periods of use. I meant that during e.g. a weekend's use, an engine in a carefully plugged well could sensibly be left in place while purely sailing, for convenience at berthing and for the return trip...

...rather than relying on, e.g. the Achilles 24 habit of somewhat laboriously removing the engine, plugging the well and stowing the engine beneath the cockpit (via the companionway) once you're under sail, and reversing that process on arrival, in both directions, simply in order to make better progress for the period under canvas.

Whatever speed is lost through drag from a short section of engine leg and prop, it must be far less than if the flat square bulkhead at the back of the well is exposed.

 

[TSB240]

Would you sail your Osprey with your leg stuck over the side? Get the right size motor and lift it in and out. It really is not that difficult. Plug the well and you get way more performance whilst sailing as you get more aft buoyancy and are carrying at least 10-15 kgs less weight of water and keep your feet dry in the cockpit. It is a no brainer.

These guys have got it sorted....http://swallowyachts.com/range/coast-250-new/

 

[Greenheart]

Hmm...I reckon I'd sail the Osprey more confidently, if a 'leg' held over the transom gave me the option to douse sail and start an auxiliary at a moment's notice. But my dinghy sailing isn't typical.

As to keeping feet dry and reducing weight of water carried, I had imagined an engine-mounted plug (formed from airtight 'boxes' which together perfectly plug the well, except for a cooling water drain), would keep the sea entirely outside the cockpit.

I admit I was thinking of the Achilles 24, where the open engine well appears to have the effect of a shovel held over the stern.

I've seen video of an extremely adept, race-winning Achilles 24 sailor, putting his lightweight auxiliary in its well...he is well-practiced and efficient. But it still required deft, dedicated work by himself and his crew to get the engine in place and started in 90 seconds.

In busy waters, single-handing and deciding spontaneously to enter creeks or go further up a wooded river than the wind alone will drive the yacht, I believe I'd be glad to forego a quarter-knot (or whatever difference the prop makes to sailing performance when the hull isn't horribly distorted by the engine well being wide open), for the knowledge I could start the engine anytime, in seconds.

It certainly wouldn't prevent one also having a standard plug that just blanks-off the well, for sustained offshore work.

A wide-open well reduces efficiency while motoring, too. It doesn't make much sense to me, when it could easily be cured.

 

[Greenheart]

My idealistic approach may betray the fact that my experience of motors is next to nil.

If you leave an unstarted 2-stroke in neutral while sailing, does the prop rotate in the flow rather than dragging excessively?

 

[Snoopy463]

My idealistic approach may betray the fact that my experience of motors is next to nil.

If you leave an unstarted 2-stroke in neutral while sailing, does the prop rotate in the flow rather than dragging excessively?

On an Achilles 24 - yes.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

Hmm...I reckon I'd sail the Osprey more confidently, if a 'leg' held over the transom gave me the option to douse sail and start an auxiliary at a moment's notice. But my dinghy sailing isn't typical.

As to keeping feet dry and reducing weight of water carried, I had imagined an engine-mounted plug (formed from airtight 'boxes' which together perfectly plug the well, except for a cooling water drain), would keep the sea entirely outside the cockpit.

I admit I was thinking of the Achilles 24, where the open engine well appears to have the effect of a shovel held over the stern.

I've seen video of an extremely adept, race-winning Achilles 24 sailor, putting his lightweight auxiliary in its well...he is well-practiced and efficient. But it still required deft, dedicated work by himself and his crew to get the engine in place and started in 90 seconds.

In busy waters, single-handing and deciding spontaneously to enter creeks or go further up a wooded river than the wind alone will drive the yacht, I believe I'd be glad to forego a quarter-knot (or whatever difference the prop makes to sailing performance when the hull isn't horribly distorted by the engine well being wide open), for the knowledge I could start the engine anytime, in seconds.

It certainly wouldn't prevent one also having a standard plug that just blanks-off the well, for sustained offshore work.

A wide-open well reduces efficiency while motoring, too. It doesn't make much sense to me, when it could easily be cured.

I wonder if there is a way to convert twisting thread screws to quick release clamps ?

I carry two outboards at present. A 2hp Honda and 6hp 4 stroke. The honda is a doddle to man handle, and with the right clamps, could be launched and running with infill in about 30 seconds depending on sea state. Also, the 360 degree power rotation when marinering can only be equalled by tugs.

The 6hp has great grunt for getting off mud banks but is a dog to handle. It's a dilemma facing outboard well enthusiasts but I would have nothing else now.

 

[Seajet]

I thought it has been proven a free spinning prop creates more drag than a fixed one in gear ?

The well on the Anderson 22 is slightly offset to port, so one just pivots the tiller up a bit when getting the engine in and out, steering is unaffected.

Also means the engine just goes fore and aft to and from the port cockpit locker normally used for the engine ( top yip, car rubber floor mats make excellent locker protectors ) and it doesn't affect an autopilot, usually on the starboard side of the tiller.

I've never had fumes build up in the well or cockpit but a small amount of water can slosh through the cockpit drain into the well, so I fitted a sliding ' hit and miss ' shutter to prevent this.

Another advantage with wells is, if you take the plug out in heavy weather you've got the worlds' largest cockpit drain.

I am very much against outboards on transoms, I think a sign of a lazy designer - weight in worst place, prop pitches out of the water, attractive andvulnerable to thieves, difficult to reach controls or work on, controls can be broken off by shorelines when rafted - and looks horrible !

 

[coveman]

Hmm...I reckon I'd sail the Osprey more confidently, if a 'leg' held over the transom gave me the option to douse sail and start an auxiliary at a moment's notice. But my dinghy sailing isn't typical.

As to keeping feet dry and reducing weight of water carried, I had imagined an engine-mounted plug (formed from airtight 'boxes' which together perfectly plug the well, except for a cooling water drain), would keep the sea entirely outside the cockpit.

I admit I was thinking of the Achilles 24, where the open engine well appears to have the effect of a shovel held over the stern.

I've seen video of an extremely adept, race-winning Achilles 24 sailor, putting his lightweight auxiliary in its well...he is well-practiced and efficient. But it still required deft, dedicated work by himself and his crew to get the engine in place and started in 90 seconds.

In busy waters, single-handing and deciding spontaneously to enter creeks or go further up a wooded river than the wind alone will drive the yacht, I believe I'd be glad to forego a quarter-knot (or whatever difference the prop makes to sailing performance when the hull isn't horribly distorted by the engine well being wide open), for the knowledge I could start the engine anytime, in seconds.

It certainly wouldn't prevent one also having a standard plug that just blanks-off the well, for sustained offshore work.

A wide-open well reduces efficiency while motoring, too. It doesn't make much sense to me, when it could easily be cured.

My thoughts entirely - glad you posted this as you put the reasoning far better than I could. I have never had any water enter the cockpit from the well on my boat.

Surely it depends whether you are an all out racer or just want to cruise at a more leisurely pace, and have the peace of mind that the engine is always available at a moments notice.

I can't see that an engine in a well is any different to a dedicated inboard, and many of these are raced, other than it can be easily removed if necessary.

 

[Seajet]

Coveman,

it depends on the boat and skipper, but in the case of the Anderson it makes me cringe when I see people leaving the engine in the well - this is usually a symptom of having the wrong engine and possibly low confidence in personal sailing ability.

I get over a knot more speed with the engine stowed and fairing plug in, I'm not into racing but this is jolly useful for cruising any distance - and the leg isn't dangling to collect weed or flotsam.

I always say sailing around with the engine in is like flying a Spitfire with the wheels down.

With the right incentive one can get the engine in and going very nearly as quickly as getting an inboard going - and no key to stand on and snap - I know an A22 owner who when a novice just wouldn't take me seriously about keeping a lookout - then when he was sailing in light airs across the Solent deep water channel and happend to look around to see a ships' bow above - he was gracious enough to mention afterwards he must have beaten all records getting the outboard going !

 

[Greenheart]

...in the case of the Anderson it makes me cringe when I see people leaving the engine in the well...I get over a knot more speed with the engine stowed and fairing plug in...I always say sailing around with the engine in is like flying a Spitfire with the wheels down.

Hi Andy, you know how keen I was to buy an A22 myself. Wonderful boats. :encouragement:

But Coveman's point, and mine, remains a good one I think. The main reason why leaving the engine in the well is frowned upon, surely isn't the engine's fault, it is the often poorly faired surrounding of the open well, which causes more drag than leg and prop.

So if a mould was made, and a plug created, enabling the well to be closed without deformation of the lines of the hull (not an impossible task), yet still permitting the engine to sit ready for operation, that would surely be a very satisfactory cruising mode?

I haven't looked down an Anderson 22's engine well so I can only speak of yachts I've encountered. But the designers' and builders' assumption that it is too problematic to design a well-plug which can fit tightly round the engine leg and thereby silence the turbulence (and the scoffing of sailing purists), looks like engineering laziness to me. When I have the chance, I will try to prove it!

 

[Seajet]

Hi Dan,

I've seen other boats with right horrors of wells, but as I mentioned a plug for the A22 with a leg shaped hole and bristles to close the small gap was tried ( in fact it wasn't me who tried it but I have that plug now ) and it didn't allow engine cooling.

It would also mean the lower leg sinking into the soft mud on the mooring which I can see causing problems.

When seriously considering building new Andersons I investigated electric engines but they won't work on the Andersons' format, it would require a long encapsulated keel type full of batteries for ballast - like a U-Boat.

So I was going to design a rail self stowing system to handle the weight of 4 strokes - nb most boats were not designed for the horrible weight of these things - but the project fell through.

 

[lw395]

The Impala originally had an outboard in a well.
It was mounted on a cunning bracket which allowed the outboard to lift and then lie down in the long stern locker under the tiller.
When the outboard was stowed, a shaped plug faired the well.
I believe it wasn't too hard or slow to deploy or remove a 10HP 2 stroke on these boats, but ours had been retrofitted with a 1GM.
Leaving a nice locker for a Bombard AX-3.

There may have been a block or three and a cleat involved, but the main ingredient was a mount which slid in tracks either side of the locker. The locker went back to the transom and there may have been a vent through the transom?
Opening the locker lid meant raising the tiller, I recall that much. So motoring would have been done with the lid shut.

 

[Greenheart]

I agree, a mud-berth isn't the place to attempt to benefit from a semi-permanent 'engine-in' well plug. Just the same, the journeys to and from the eventual anchorage or mooring might be a shade easier on the singlehander, if it only needs lifting after arrival.

Such is my ignorance of even my own (still untested) engine, I don't quite follow how its cooling system might be impeded by a semi-sealed, tight-fitting plug-surround.

I think the Mariner has a tell-tale cooling water outlet halfway up the leg, from where the stream could be directed into a purpose-designed central drain in any custom-moulded plug.

I'm certainly not saying I think I'm right where everyone who has actually tried it, hasn't found a satisfactory solution. But if there's an insurmountable flaw in my idea, I haven't identified it yet.

I love the electric auxiliary idea. The abler the yacht at sailing, the lighter the duty on her engine...dinghy cruising has made me regard an auxiliary as a gift I can cope without. I know it's a lifesaver in extremis, but my kind of sailing takes great care to avoid extremes.

 

[lw395]

I thought it has been proven a free spinning prop creates more drag than a fixed one in gear ?
....!

Not for a free-spinning outboard prop.
Try rowing a tender with the outboard down.
Mine, if the engine is in gear, the drag is enough to tilt the engine.
In neutral the drag is a lot less.

All 'props' are not the same though, the converse can be demonstrated by helicopters gliding rather better with the blades spinning than stalled.

 

[Seajet]

The Impala originally had an outboard in a well.
It was mounted on a cunning bracket which allowed the outboard to lift and then lie down in the long stern locker under the tiller.
When the outboard was stowed, a shaped plug faired the well.
I believe it wasn't too hard or slow to deploy or remove a 10HP 2 stroke on these boats, but ours had been retrofitted with a 1GM.
Leaving a nice locker for a Bombard AX-3.

There may have been a block or three and a cleat involved, but the main ingredient was a mount which slid in tracks either side of the locker. The locker went back to the transom and there may have been a vent through the transom?
Opening the locker lid meant raising the tiller, I recall that much. So motoring would have been done with the lid shut.

Yes, if we'd gone any further with new Andersons I planned a good look over an outboard equipped Impala.

I once looked over a 26' Julian Everitt designed one - off in wood & epoxy - it had a large bridgedeck housing a Seagull, which lowered vertically; when the engine was raised the well was closed by hinged aircraft undercarriage style doors.

It did strike me as maybe too clever for its own good...

 

[Aquaboy]

The new Swallow Yachts Coast250 has a kick up outboard in a well......... amidships!